A "Bring Your Own Culture" Mindset, and Creating Psychological Safety with Aga Bajer

Dane: Welcome to the Future of Teamwork podcast. My name's Dane Groeneveld, CEO of HUDDL3 group. And today, joining me from Athens, Greece. We have Aga Bajer, the founder and CEO of CultureBrained, and the podcast host of CultureLab. So, welcome to the show, Aga.

Aga: Thank you. It's so wonderful to be here. Thank you for having me.

Dane: It was good catching up just before we started rolling, hearing a little bit more about our shared love of the Greek islands. I've certainly enjoyed some time down there, and we've both spent a lot of time being expatriates working in industry over the years.

Aga: Yeah, we have lots of things in common.

Dane: Yeah.

Aga: Yeah.

Dane: So it's going to be an exciting conversation. So perhaps for those listening into the conversation, you could provide a little bit of a backstory. What brought you to be doing all of this great work around culture.

Aga: So I think a couple of things, really. The first one is I grew up behind the Iron Curtain in communist Poland. And for your listeners who are not very familiar with what it was like, it was a little bit like North Korea, really. So lots of violations of human rights, extremely isolated environment, and a lot of repression. And so, one could think that people would be afraid to express themselves freely or that they would really comply to the regime. But if you walked into a home of a Polish family back then, what you would see or hear were conversations that normally people wouldn't have outside. But people thought independently. They read Western literature, watched Western movies. And I guess since I was a kid, I realized that you cannot really force people to think, feel, and do things the way you want to, even if you have a lot of power. And I suppose I didn't have that language back then, and perhaps as a kid, I didn't really get to the bottom of this, but I did realize that someone can have a lot of formal power and yet zero impact on what is actually happening, and that was fascinating to me. And the second thing was a little bit later, my friend and I, we started a company and it was an ice cream factory, which still exists by the way. It's one of the-

Dane: Very cool.

Aga: Yeah. It's one of the largest, actually, ice cream producers in Eastern Europe, Central Eastern Europe. But back then when we started it, we had no idea what we were doing. I was a student of literature myself, he was the entrepreneurial person and talked me into it. And I always thought of myself as someone who really cares about people, and someone who gives a lot of attention to creating an environment where people feel good and where they can perform. I used to be a teacher before that. And yet, in the business environment, it was really hard to cultivate that environment where the people we had in our company would feel engaged, would feel like they can really fulfill their potential. And I was acutely aware of it, and really annoyed that I was unable to do what's needed to be done. And when I am in a situation like this, I think it still, to this day, I never give up. So like, " Okay, I'm going to figure it out." And that was the beginning of my journey, really. I went down this rabbit hole and I started learning. I remember one of the first books that I read was Emotional Intelligence by Daniel Goleman. And it was like, " Whoosh." My mind was blown literally. I was like, " Yes, yes. That is super important for leaders in companies. Of course." And so that was the fascination. And the funny thing is, fast- forward to 10 years, I ended up working in Hay Group, and Daniel Goleman was one of the directors of that company. So it was crazy.

Dane: Wow.

Aga: Yeah, so it was pretty amazing, I have to say. And so that was the journey, basically. I just needed to figure it out. It was something that really fascinated me, and with time, that obsession turned into a career.

Dane: That's awesome.

Aga: Yeah.

Dane: It's interesting that it started out in an ice cream factory.

Aga: I know.

Dane: I would never have picked that. Funnily enough, one of my dad's first jobs was working in, I think, the Pauls Ice Cream factory in Brisbane, and-

Aga: Really?

Dane: Yeah, and he's trying to be always-

Aga: Are you a big fan of ice cream yourself?

Dane: Not anymore.

Aga: Not anymore. Mm-hmm.

Dane: No. I can't balance. I might either all in or all out. But gelato, if I go to Italy, I know you've spent some time there.

Aga: Oh, my God. Yes.

Dane: I'm in for that.

Aga: Yeah. I used to live in Italy. We just actually returned to Greece a year ago. We spent 12, 13, I think, years in Italy. And it was such a wonderful experience. I could literally live off gelato, nice espresso, good wine. I had everything I needed there. It's so wonderful.

Dane: That's the good life.

Aga: The good life. Yeah.

Dane: That's awesome. So the interesting thing about an ice cream factory is that it's not really knowledge work, not for most of the people. It's people doing tasks, doing manual labor. And I often think when we talk to customers and other thought leaders out there that that is a frustrating environment to be able to really own and cultivate culture, because it's so task- focused, and people are working often in hazardous, safety- sensitive roles. So was that a big driver of that initial frustration, was just the heavy- task- based workload?

Aga: Yes. And also, there was such a huge urgency actually to cultivate a good culture, because when you think about what the consequences were of, for example, not having safety culture in a company like that, and we did have one really terrible accident, which was a big eyeopener for us, because we thought that we've done everything we could to protect people. And so it wasn't the matter of not having the right tools or not having the right knowledge, it was just a matter of those unwritten norms. And so, one of the ladies who worked in the factory did not wear her net on her hair and her hair got caught in the machine. So that was one of those moments when I was like, " What is going on here," and, " Why don't people do what they're supposed to be doing?" And of course, then, I understood that it's all about relationships and what is the person who's working next to you doing, and what are those unwritten norms? It really doesn't matter what you tell people as a boss, because the moment you leave factory, they're going to do what they are used to doing. And so with time, and I've been consulting my friend a little bit around that, they did start working with their shift leaders, and the people who are there always, and making sure that they're role models. But obviously, back to your question, yes, there is a lot of frustration, of course, because it is a very constraining environment, and it seems like you don't really have a lot of wiggle room. But of course if you engage your creativity in that, you realize, actually, there's a lot you can do.

Dane: Yeah, you're right. I've seen some really creative solutions. And you touched on a really key word there too, relationships. So I've seen walking some really advanced manufacturing floors, just the way they create relationships and almost gamification of teams on the floor, doing different parts of the product line. And there is some cool stuff going on in those environments. When you think relationships, I saw a good post the other day that said, first, you need to get your sleep and hygiene right, then your relationships, then your mindset. It was all about, don't start with mindset, because if you don't have the relationships, it's not going to work. And if you're not healthy, it's not going to work.

Aga: Yeah.

Dane: You talk a lot about... I've heard on some of your podcasts. This BYOC, Bring Your Own Culture and the role of the individual in their two- meter radius. Could you tell us how you've seen that through your work and, over time, impact good relationships in a business in a team?

Aga: First of all, let me just say, I love that you did your homework. I almost didn't remember that Bring Your Own Culture thin, so thank you for reminding me. But indeed, I do talk about this from time to time, and I need to actually talk about this more, because it is a great concept, and it's all about... Exactly, I really do believe that, that you are responsible for the culture around you. I don't know what the radius is exactly. Maybe it's one meter or two meters, whatever it is, right?

Dane: Yeah.

Aga: But we absolutely are, and the things that we do are what shapes culture around us. And so I deeply believe in the fact that actions clearly speak louder than words. I'm learning this every single day, over and over again with my team as well. And back to your point, if relationships are more important or should come first, and then your mindset or vice versa, to me, it feels a little bit like a chicken and egg question. So I'm not entirely sure, because I think if you don't have the right mindset, sometimes it's really hard to build really great relationships. If you don't have those relationships that give you the foundation or relationships that can inspire you to live up to your best self. Again, it's hard to build a mindset. So I wouldn't necessarily say that one comes before the other. I would say they're definitely both important, and I think we should be focusing on both. And back to mindset and back to that responsibility for our own actions, because your question was, have you seen examples of that playing out in organizations and how exactly that plays out? Yes, I have seen examples, really powerful ones actually. And one of them, which I think had a profound impact on me was because I was a member of a team where we had a colleague who had a mindset that was contagious, incredibly solution- focused, incredibly positive, but not positive in the way, " Oh, it's going to be fine, don't worry." But she was the person who would take any obstacle and say, " Okay, how can we turn this into the way forward?" The obstacle is the path, that was her philosophy. And tiny little things as well. So it wasn't just those huge issues that we were faced with, but I can't find the right connection flight. She would sit with you and say, " Okay, so maybe you can do this, you can do that." And it really rubs off on you. And I remember that after three years working with her, I was a completely different person. Completely different person. And thankfully, that's really stayed with me. And unfortunately, we lost this colleague. She died way too early. And I know that her legacy and that impact that she had, not just on me but, really, on everyone around, it still lives in us. So it's incredibly powerful and makes me feel how huge a responsibility we have, not just as leaders but colleagues, because those little things really matter, right?

Dane: Yeah, they do. And it is interesting, I like the use of the word contagious energy of your colleague there. She brings something that does rub off on people through action every day, not just through the values that are on the wall. And often, and we've seen this theme emerge in a few conversations we've had on this podcast, it's those moments of stress and strain, and sweat, when you're trying to work through a problem when, actually team members, not just leaders, team members can help diffuse the situation, create positive framework to come out the other side in a better place, maybe, than you went in to.

Aga: Yeah. And Dane, I don't know if you're familiar with this, but we work sometimes with organizational network analysis to identify the so- called informal influencers, right?

Dane: Yeah.

Aga: Because these people, very often, are not visible to their companies, to their team leaders. And it's interesting because they typically have two things that other people don't have. One is they have social capital. So relationships, back to your point, right?

Dane: Yeah.

Aga: They're really well- connected. So their network, and if you map it, you can see that their network really is quite expansive. And the second thing that they have is they have credibility and trust. And this is super important as well, because it's not just about being social butterfly, but it's about building quality relationships with people. And when you have that, then absolutely, whatever you do, it is going to rub off on others, and it is going to create that viral impact that, basically, I think 10xs, any behavioral change in terms of speed, but also scale and reach that you might want to cultivate in your company. So it's really interesting to identify who are these people on my team, and how could we engage them in creating that positive contagion where the right behaviors, the behaviors that help us be inclusive, that help us be effective, innovative, whatever your objective is. Who are those people who can help us create that contagion across the company?

Dane: Yeah, and if you can create contagion that has a 10x impact, that's good for everyone. The network analysis, I've read a lot about it, I've never done it in an organization I've been working with or a part of. But it does fascinate me for the reason that you mentioned, that you get these people with social capital and reach, and credibility, and trust, and they can actually create, I think, faster learning loops, learning cycles, and better communication pathways to get messages out to businesses so they don't feel like something's coming down from the heavens.

Aga: Yeah.

Dane: How do you go about starting that process? If you're a small to medium business, and you can't go and pay a big consultancy to come in and do the analysis, are there some ways that you and the team come in and work with business owners to look at their business and the network within their business?

Aga: Yeah. So first of all, you can really DIY it. So you don't need to hire anyone. And I think this is what's so encouraging. Know you cannot map the networks in the way that organizational network analysis does it, because it is a complex tool, and clearly, internally, in- house, you are not going to have that capability. But if you are a company of 200 people or less, then I think that by asking the right questions and truly listening, you can identify who these people are. And the questions are really who is the person that you go to when you need reliable information? Who is the person that elevates the mood and morale in this team? Who's the person, when you need help, you know that they are always going to be available, right?

Dane: Yeah.

Aga: Or who's the person who's accessible when you are in a pinch? There are some people that are easier to reach than others, who is this person? And basically, the questions are always about who is this person. Because you want these people to be pure and nominated. So it's not like describe the attributes of a person like that. You are really interested in individuals. And then I would advise people in companies to approach them and say, " A lot of people told me that you are a person that they turn to for advice," et cetera, et cetera. And so we want to work with a group of people who will help us to strengthen our culture or transform it, or evolve it, whatever it is. Approach them and engage them, and give them also the opportunity to decline the invitation. I think that's very important, right?

Dane: Yeah.

Aga: Because you don't want to force anyone into that. You want them to do it. But I think in itself, it's already a wonderful recognition when you can say, " We know that your colleagues value you and you are very important to this organization. So we would like to engage you in making things even better for your colleagues here."

Dane: I like that approach. It's funny, my son had an experience at school last week. His teacher said... His name is Riker, Dutch name. " Riker Groeneveld, can you please stay after class?" And everyone was like, " Oh, you're in trouble." And his teacher comes and hands him a piece of paper, and I thought they did this brilliantly. And the piece of paper, it's got a Willy Wonka& the Chocolate Factory vibe to it. It's like here's the golden ticket and it says-

Aga: Golden ticket.

Dane: ... "We've identified you as someone who's really positive and supports your classmates, and we'd like you to apply for this student council if you want to. And if you want to, you can go and have a conversation with these people in this room. But you don't need to be nominated by peers because you got the golden ticket." He was so proud when he came home, but I was like, " Now, I wonder if you could do that at work."

Aga: I can imagine. Congratulations.

Dane: Yeah, it was a buzz.

Aga: Yeah. Oh, my God, I'm going to steal this idea now with the golden ticket. I love it. How brilliant.

Dane: So clever.

Aga: So clever, so clever. And I love the approach of you can apply. So you are not forced to do that, but if you would like to, you can apply. Absolutely. And then you pick the people who can apply. I'm going to steal it. I love it. Golden tickets. Thank you.

Dane: Good. And so once those people do opt in with some of the teams you've worked with, where do you see the right format for helping them be part of a group that's trying to affect change or build a communications plan? Is it more of a tiger team or are they being moved in their role, how does that tend to play out?

Aga: So it's definitely not a full- time job. It's definitely something that shouldn't take too much of people's bandwidth. Because actually, what they're going to be doing is they're just going to be doing their job just like they did. It's just that they will do it perhaps slightly differently. So it's about the how, not about the what, typically. Unless of course you have a slightly different initiative, but when we are talking about creating the viral behavioral change, typically, what happens is the organization already knows that there is a shift that needs to happen. So for example, you have identified through some sort of diagnosis that, yes, you want to be a very innovative organization, but you discovered that there's no psychological safety in your teams. And so people are really afraid to think in unconventional ways or challenge the status quo, et cetera, et cetera. So we know what's wrong and now we need to figure out, " Okay, so how do we fix it?" And so the thing to do here is to really identify what are the behaviors that can create that psychological safety for everyone in really, really granular terms. So it can be even I will ask a question. If I see someone in a meeting who's very quiet and hasn't contributed, I will say, " Hey, Tony. I think that you might want to share something about the project that you were involved in, because I know that there was something really relevant to the conversation that we have right now. Would you mind?" So really drawing people in. If you don't want to put someone on the spot, it depends on the culture, you can design different behaviors, different questions, but the whole idea is that you give people something super, super specific, and basically, help them be more intentional about displaying these behaviors more frequently and in the moments during moments that matter. I think we all know there are certain situations where when you don't have that psychological safety, where someone doesn't create that space for you, it can be, not just very disappointing but really very damaging. And so it's important that the right people do the right things during those moments so that you don't lock people up. So this is the kind of work that you do, really, with these individuals. And we typically engage them and activate them just once per month, maybe during a meeting where we talk about what happened, what impact it's had, do they have any other ideas of what they could be doing differently, what problems they have faced. So it's really tapping into the collective wisdom of this group as well. And typically, they really hold their hand on the pulse of the organization better than any pulse survey could. So it's really good to be connected to them as well. It works in both ways because they're feeding back to the organization what is happening, what are the root causes of certain things, and also being that connector and the sneezer who sneezes and causes the-

Dane: The sneezer.

Aga: Yeah, I know that after COVID it's not a great way to talk about it.

Dane: That's right, but it-

Aga: Maybe I need to come up with a better way of expressing it.

Dane: It creates a dispersion through the group. I like that.

Aga: Yeah.

Dane: Well, we weren't talking viral, so it's totally in step.

Aga: Yeah.

Dane: Oh, that's cool. The collective wisdom. And you talked about pulse surveys, I mean, through COVID, I think a lot of people that I speak to have felt that they've either been in a death by survey or death by committee environment, and we're just throwing all of this stuff at people and it's not really turning into a iterative learning cycle for positive change. Do you find that those monthly meetings... When you go in and work with a team, are they part of a larger structure? Some people are using a certain system, like a planning system or OKRs, and things like that, or is this just more organic and it's, " Let's get together and talk about what we're seeing."

Aga: Yeah, what I see is typically... And that's because I live in a bubble. So I have to be honest. What I see is often what happens after an organization realizes that we want to be more intentional about our culture, and so we want to work with a group of people who are going to focus on that. And so, often, I actually see this process being a separate process from, for example, performance management or goal setting, or conversations around performance. Not separate in the sense that it's not linked, but that there is an intention that is very specific to improving culture. But having said that, the things that I don't see, but I know that happen also, is that team leaders and teams that perform really well, they do have these conversations organically. And I think a great manager knows that they need to ask 30 members, not just what stands in the way in our processes or tools, but also what should we be doing differently generally, full stop, and that's basically what culture is, or what holds us back. And having these really honest conversations about where you can really express those things. And I think this is where the groundwork becomes so important, because you cannot have these organic conversations in an environment where you don't have psychological safety. People will not tell you even if they are your team member.

Dane: No, I agree. I think that psychological safety, it just keeps coming up. It's becoming a bigger and bigger... I don't want to say obstacle. It's a bigger and bigger asset to the teams that have it.

Aga: Bigger, yeah.

Dane: Because there aren't that many teams that have got a high score on that scale.

Aga: Yeah, exactly. And for our listeners, I think that this term is misunderstood. So I feel that it might be actually useful to talk about what psychological safety really is, because it's not creating an environment that is nice and fluffy, and safe, and there is no risk of failure, and you don't need to be afraid of anything. That's not what it's all about. It's really about eliminating interpersonal risk. In other words, and we talked about relationships earlier, it's about being able to express yourself and the truth as you see it without the fear of sacrificing the relationships that you have with people around you, right?

Dane: Yeah.

Aga: And I think-

Dane: Or your employment, because some people are afraid they going to lose their job.

Aga: Exactly. I mean, people tell me... This is one of the phrases I learned from our client. They said, " This is a CLM here," which means career limiting move. " Hey, you don't share the truth with your boss." Exactly. So once something like this happens and you know that there is a risk, either someone is not going to speak to you anymore or you are going to miss out on the promotion, of course. It is an unsafe environment. So that's really important to keep in mind, especially if you are a leader. Because I think we don't realize how scary we can be generally. I think as leaders, we tell ourselves, " I'm a nice person, I care about my people. I'm so open to ideas. I don't understand. Why don't they come to me? Why don't they challenge me?" But the thing is, and I see it, and I see it in myself as well, my team challenges me on something, and I listen, and I try to be as open as possible, and I'm feeling that something's happening to my face, and that they can see that I don't like the idea. And that's enough, because-

Dane: You got to have a good poker face.

Aga: Yeah. If you cannot control that sometimes, unfortunately, it's going to have a negative impact on your team. Why? Because as a leader, unfortunately, everything that you do gets magnified.

Dane: Yeah, it does. They're all looking at you.

Aga: Yeah.

Dane: Yeah.

Aga: So I think we need to put the bar a little bit higher for ourselves if we're in any kind of leadership role, even if it's not formal leadership role, but people look up to us. Because unfortunately, most of us, we are not as safe to work with as we'd like to believe.

Dane: No, I agree with that. It's interesting. I like the way you describe psychological safety as not the fluffy, friendly place. In fact, good sign of psychological safety is that people are having what most people would think are uncomfortable conversations, that there's tension, because that's actually a good for a team. That's good for a business.

Aga: Yeah, 100%. Mm- hmm.

Dane: If marketing's killing it, and if logistics can't get orders out in time, then someone needs to be having that conversation. Otherwise, you're really going to do brand damage. And we've got Craig Weber, who was on one of our earlier podcasts, does great work around conversational capacity. And to your point on the role of the leader, he's got this great phrase which is that, " A leader that comes in and doesn't set the right tone in the psychological safety is essentially robbing the team of intelligence, because there's all of these data points and insights around the table." And if you can't have a good poker face or sit there without crossing your arms and looking defensive, then Craig's always like, " Well, just get out of the room. Tell them to talk about what they think needs to be done, and have an ambassador present on behalf of the group when the boss comes back in."

Aga: Yeah. And then when you come back to the room, again, practice your poker faces, because-

Dane: Breathe.

Aga: ...I've seen this happen.

Dane: Yeah.

Aga: I've seen this happen. I've seen teams being super creative and coming up with amazing solutions, then the leader comes in and someone shares the first idea, and then it's like-

Dane: Uh- oh.

Aga: ...finance, and everyone's nervous, and it's over. Game over. So it's so incredibly important. What can we say? I think what would be interesting, and I wonder what you see as well, is what are the practices that people can embrace to develop that skill? Because it's not inherent to human beings. I don't feel that it is. We are quite hierarchical as species, and so we need to work almost against our own nature to create psychological safety.

Dane: Oh. No, I agree. And I haven't found any winning practices. I've found a lot of hacks, but it's hard.

Aga: What are they? Please share them.

Dane: Some of the hacks.

Aga: Yeah.

Dane: I think one of the hacks right now is about these... What do they call them? Asynchronous meetings where, essentially, you say here's the information that we want to discuss, here's our object. Everyone come in, and in a digital environment, create a video or make notes on a document. I find that is good because it gives people time and space to digest and to say what they want without seeing a body language reaction or having someone challenge them. I think that's a good hack. But you can't walk into a live fire environment where there's a problem on a manufacturing line floor and say, " Hey, let's all go back to our computers and do an asynchronous exercise for the next 24 hours," because it might be a safety issue. So it's a good hack for a certain circumstance, but it's not a universal truth.

Aga: Yeah, but I like that one. I think that it also is very inclusive in that very often, and I see this so many times. I'm an introvert myself. It's really hard for me to think on my feet, especially under pressure. Give me one minute and just let me shut off my camera and my mic, and give me a minute, and I'm not exaggerating, and I'll have 10 ideas. But if you look at me and wait, and tell me, " Give me five ideas," now I'm completely blocked. So I think we need to keep that in mind as well, that the world consists of introverts. They will definitely thrive in an environment like this, so there are so many positives to that. Thanks for sharing that. It's a great idea.

Dane: No, you bet. It's fun. So the future of teams, obviously, we've been talking about a lot of the challenges that we've come through from the early ice cream factory to COVID, and to be more intentional about culture. But as you start to think about the future, where do you have, I guess, vision or hope for the way that teams are going to be working differently together, the way that we might be including technologies or doing something that is going to free us up on psychological safety and other key factors?

Aga: I will start with the vision and the dream, and then I'll move on to more midterm forecasts that I have, okay?

Dane: Great.

Aga: But I would love to speak about the vision and the dream first. And my vision and my dream for the future of work is that work actually becomes synonymous with fun, meaning, and belonging. And this is something that I talk a lot about because in my research I've discovered that these are the three pillars of thriving cultures. And when I talk about the thriving culture, what I basically mean is an environment where people can do their best work. So, that's my dream. I truly believe that as we are evolving as human species, and this is of course a positive scenario, because our negative scenarios as well. The positive scenario is that we will actually have that opportunity to create that because the work that we don't want to be doing, because it's either boring or too hard for human beings, we can outsource to robots and artificial intelligence, and machines, so we can really focus on doing things that we truly enjoy doing. And for me, this is what work is supposed to be anyway, what should be a source of fulfillment and meaning. And it should also give us a community, a sense of supportive community. So this is the dream. And when it comes to a midterm focus, what I'm seeing in the trends that I'm seeing, I think three things pop up for me from many other things. One is in terms of teamwork, I'm seeing more of teaming than teams. So people come together for a project or a specific task, and then basically, this team gets dismantled and people do something else. So there's way more flexibility than we used to see before. And I think it's a trend that is accelerating. And that, of course, requires a slightly different skillset and definitely a lot of clarity when it comes to why are we here, what are we supposed to do together? Which has always been the foundation for great teamwork anyway. But I think in the future, this is going to be even more important. And so clarity around what our purpose, what are we trying to accomplish here, what are the desired outcomes, and then bringing people together for a short period of time and allowing them this opportunity to collaborate, and then go to something else, move forward to something else. So that's one thing. Second thing, and we're doing this at CultureBrained as well already, so it's definitely not far in the future. Some companies are doing more of it is collaborative intelligence. And so it's combining human and artificial intelligence, and that is a very interesting space. I enjoy... We use OpenAI, I enjoy collaborating with Shaquanda Laui, we called her, so she has a name. She's our colleague and she's helping us a lot. And what I've noticed is that it still requires a lot of human touch to have a good outcome. And I think this is really going to be the future of collaboration between humans and machines. So first, we need to train them so that they can learn from us. And so what we feed into it is going to show in the output. So our inputs needs to be high quality, and it's not only just that reliable information, but also how biased is it's going to be. That's a huge conversation, of course, right?

Dane: Yes.

Aga: So that's a huge responsibility to train it, and also then, make sure that you retain it within the boundaries that are still serving humanity. And so we need to collaborate with these machines, and that's a big trend, and I think that it can be really fun collaboration, but it does require a lot of responsibility from us, for sure.

Dane: Yeah. No, I really like that one.

Aga: And then there's of course another one that you've already alluded to, which is clearly virtual and hybrid work, and not going away, which of that I don't even think that the forecast is just stating the obvious. And so in terms of teamwork, I think we're not there yet. So we need to figure out how to work well in an inclusive way in this environment, because I see a lot of teams that work in the same space, and then the rest of the team is distributed, and there are a lot of inequalities there, and it's an issue, it's a major issue. So we need to figure it out, but I think we will see more and more of that. So this is where the future lies. No going back, I'm afraid. I know some leaders are trying to go back to how things used to be, but personally-

Dane: It's just like fashion and music. Some people will go back to a fashion or a genre of music that they like because it's comfortable, not because it's the right thing to do next.

Aga: Yeah.

Dane: Yeah.

Aga: And I think in some contexts, it might be nice and charming, and maybe the right thing to do. But I think for the majority of the world, if you want to be successful, if you want to have access to a wider talent pool, if you want to attract the right talents, that's not going to compromise and suffer a two- hour or three- hour commute. You have no options, basically.

Dane: No, you're absolutely right. I was on the phone this morning with a good friend of mine in Kenya, and he's in the midst of taking a job back in Saudi Arabia and moving his family to London for a period of time, and the complexities of what needs to happen right now to bring the right teams together on big projects, because this is a big theme park project in Saudi, and he's an expert in his field. So the only way that they're going to be able to retain him long term is if he goes and gets onboarded, but then he can work remote so that he's back with his family in England or Kenya, or wherever it might be. He's not going to uproot and move everything. His wife has a career too. So I think to your point, accessing and attracting, and retaining good talent, it's going to be essential to keep embracing virtual and hybrid.

Aga: Yeah. And thank you for bringing it up because I think, often, companies don't even think of this aspect of people's lives, but up until now... And I've experienced it personally because my husband works in the hospitality industry. And so, basically, we've been moving around a lot. If I didn't have that opportunity to work remotely, and I need to say a shout- out to PwC, that was really progressive back then when I was working at PwC, and at some point, actually it was my boss who approached me, and we are talking 2000... Let me think. It must have been 2018,'17, somewhere there. So definitely before the pandemic. He approached me and he said, " Hey, I know..." Because my husband was in Italy. I was in Cyprus, and he said, " Hey, I know that you're going to leave if this situation is not solved, so why don't you just go to Italy and we'll figure it out." And I still kept working for them for a couple of years. So that's really important because-

Dane: Yeah, it is.

Aga: ...you give families an opportunity to be together and have a career, both of them. It's an important conversation when we think about equality and quality of people's lives, et cetera, et cetera.

Dane: Yeah, it really is. Actually, going back to your dream of fun, meaning, and belonging. There was a great, great thought leader, Heather McGowan, I'm not sure if you are familiar with her material. But she did a keynote speech last year at Staffing Industry Analysts, and she talked about the fact that, now, the belonging part is at the center. It used to be what your profession or your job is, but the belonging part is now at the center. And people are gravitating more and more to where they belong in the communities they belong in, and then choosing the work and the meaning around that. But it is a shift. And I think for certain industries, certain types of businesses, certain professions, you're going to need to be more and more flexible and open- minded. Particularly in the creative industries, creative industries, you might have a creative that's all about being out in nature and living way away from a big city. And then you may have a creative that loves more industrial art and they're living in a big city. So you can't get a creative team altogether in one place very easily.

Aga: Yeah, totally. Couldn't agree more. And the funny thing is with belonging, is that when you think about how many tribes you have in your life, you realize that there's not one, two, or three. It's probably dozens. Because it's a tribe of people who love sailing. You've mentioned that you love that, and so there's a tribe there. There's a tribe of people who love hiking. I don't know. The tribe of parents. It's so many.

Dane: Book club.

Aga: Yeah, book club. And I think that if an organization is serious about creating an environment where people want to connect with others, want to come back, and want to give their best energy and creativity, and ideas, this has to be one of the tribes. So it's not to say that work is going to be the only tribe that people belong to, but it has to feel like these are my people, this is my tribe, and it's meaningful to me to be connected to them.

Dane: Yeah. I know we were talking just before this show about Garry Ridge, but he's always been very intentional about the tribe at WD-40 in his time there, and that really stuck and worked.

Aga: Yeah, so true. Seth Godin talks a lot about tribes as well.

Dane: Yes. So the final question I had for you goes back to psychological safety. And you mentioned in your midterm outlook there's more teaming than teams. So does teaming in of itself, the nature of the fact that you come together for a project or task, create more psychological safety because it's not as creet as the team that you might ordinarily belong to? Have you seen any evidence of that?

Aga: I haven't seen evidence. This is a really fascinating question. And I think Amy Edmondson, the mother of psychological safety and the person who came up with the idea of teaming first as well, she will definitely be able to answer that. So I think we need to reach out to her and tell us about the data around it because I haven't done research on that particular topic. But my impression would be that there are two sides to this coin. So I think there are certain aspects of teaming that can make it feel a little bit safer because you don't have these relationships that you are afraid to damage, because you disagree, for example. So it's like you are freer. It's a little bit like this thing, people will tell me their life stories when I travel on planes. I hate when it happens because I usually have some work to do, and the person turns to me and we chat for a little bit, and then suddenly it's like boom, their whole life story. And I think the reason it happens is that they know that they will never see me again. So it feels safe.

Dane: Yeah, great point.

Aga: Mm-hmm. In that sense, I think, absolutely 100%. But on the other hand though, of course, trust takes some time to build. And when you are coming with a new team, it's not there yet. So it is a very fascinating question. I would really love to see some research on that because I have no idea how to answer it, but I can see that it's going to be more-

Dane: I like the two perspectives, though, of the trust and the never having to see them again. They're good perspective, so we can maybe use those to frame the deeper investigation.

Aga: Yeah, I agree.

Dane: No, that's great. Well, it's been a wonderful conversation, Aga.

Aga: Indeed, thank you.

Dane: I mean from your origin story and the ice cream factory, and that frustration with culture and the need to be intentional, and then obviously, a lot of talk around relationships and psychological safety. And I really love the dream. Fun, meaning, belonging. That's what I want to see for my kids and grandkids. I know a lot of people who look at work as a four letter word. It's not a good thing. It's not a good experience. But people should be able to come to work and it should be one of the tribes that they're excited about being a part of. So I love the way you frame that. And those three big themes for the future, more teaming, collaborative intelligence, and continuing to embrace an experiment with virtual and hybrid work. I think they were all really important for any of our listeners out there that are trying to strategize on how to be more intentional with their teams and cultures.

Aga: Thank you. Thank you for having me. I really enjoyed the conversation as well. It's wonderful. And thank you for the work that you are doing. The world needs it. I agree with you that, definitely don't have kids myself, but it's really important that we create these workplaces for the future generations because they deserve it. We've already done enough damage. They are going to inherit the planet that is in much worse shape than we found it. And so I think at least we can do this one thing right. People spend so much time at work and we have so little time on this planet, so we really deserve a great experience at work.

Dane: We do. Well, thank you for the work that you do, and for those of our listeners that want to connect with you either on the podcast or with CultureBrained, what's the best way for them to find you?

Aga: The best way to find me is to type this into your browser, agabajer. com, which is my name, A- G- A- B- A- J- E- R dot com. I'm very active on LinkedIn as well, so absolutely reach out and connect with me. I'd love to get to know you. I answer all my messages. I try, at least, on LinkedIn, so it's a good way to reach out and chat. And you might also want to have a look at our community for CultureBrained leaders as we call them. They are people who are passionate about cultivating thriving cultures. And you can find it on my website, but also at culturebrained. com.

Dane: Wonderful. Well, again, thanks for joining me today. Great conversation, Aga, and look forward to connecting again soon.

Aga: Same here. Thank you.