The Role of "Good Trouble" and Transformation within Organizations with Geoffrey Roche
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Speaker 1: Welcome to The Future Of Teamwork podcast, where we explore cutting edge strategies to keep teams human- centered, drive innovation, and empower you with the tools and insights needed to help your team excel and thrive in today's rapidly changing world. Your host is Dane Groeneveld, a seasoned expert with over 20 years of experience in enhancing team dynamics and innovation. Today, we are thrilled to have a guest who truly embodies the spirit of empathetic leadership and the importance of human connections in the professional realm. Geoffrey Roche, the director of workforce development for North America at Siemens Healthineers, is not just an influential leader in the healthcare technology sector. He carries with him a legacy. As the son of a dedicated nurse, Geoffrey's unique superpower is building meaningful, human- centered relationships. Dive deep with Geoffrey and Dane as they explore, first DEIB and community engagement. Understand the intersections between diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging, workforce development, and the essential role of forging genuine connections within the communities you serve. Second, good trouble and company culture. Discover how to courageously address behaviors out of step with your company culture, and master the art of probing questions that encourage reflection and alignment with core values. Third, strategic learning and development. Grasp the paramount importance of continuous learning, underlined by intentionality and a strategic approach to foster continuous growth. So teamwork makes the dream work, and we're here to inspire your next collaborative breakthrough. Gather your team or put on your headphones and let's dive in together.
Dane Groeneveld: Welcome to The Future Of Teamwork podcast. My name's Dane Groeneveld, CEO of the HUDDL3 Group, and today I'm joined by Geoffrey Roche. Geoffrey is the director of workforce development at Siemens Healthineers, and we've just been having a great conversation about the tag of heart leader, so it's going to be great talking about connecting with teams today with Geoffrey. Welcome to the show.
Geoffrey Roche: Thank you, Dane, for having me.
Dane Groeneveld: You bet. So for the benefit of our listeners, tell us a little bit more about your story, how you came to be doing all of this great work, connecting teams and growing people in those teams.
Geoffrey Roche: Yeah, so I always tell people I'm the son of a nurse, and so came into healthcare, really at an early age, started to really understand what my mom was doing as a nurse. And then when I went to college, did not think I would go into healthcare to be honest with you, because I thought, " No, no thank you. I heard all those stories." But then when I was a senior, actually did a semester long internship at a healthcare system and really fell in love with the leadership opportunities that existed. And I've always been somebody who always was grasping at leadership opportunity, even when I was in school. And so came in and was fortunate to obtain my first role in what was my home community healthcare system where I grew up, and was blessed to be around really some truly amazing leaders. And it's funny because as I've now looked back on my career of over 15 years, it was those almost 10 years that I saw by far in my life thus far, the best leaders. And when I look at what that was like, it was so much focus on team. In fact, I was just sharing with a colleague recently that I had a senior vice president there who was just such a great listener that he would literally... When he would facilitate a meeting, he wouldn't allow us to end the meeting, even if we were running late, unless everyone in the room was heard. And he always said in healthcare, where moments, seconds, minutes matter, one person's voice could make all the difference. And so it was those types of leaders that truly not just transformed me as a professional. But I will say as a young leader at that time, set the foundation for what I know has become who I am, but more importantly, what I continue to want to be like.
Dane Groeneveld: Yeah, I love that, creating that voice. Particularly in healthcare, because we've all heard the horror stories of the nurse that doesn't speak up, because there's no psychological safety in the surgery and the accident happens. So there's real stakes on the line there too.
Geoffrey Roche: Yeah, and I think to your point there, right? It's that element. I mean, having been in multiple healthcare environments, particularly in acute care, where you unfortunately have a lot of leaders who aren't setting up that psychological safety, or aren't inviting and involving people in that decision- making process, or in that discussion. And what I learned, my first CEO was a nurse. And so I always tell people I was really lucky to have that as my first CEO, because I saw somebody who yes, she was a nurse, but she was also one of the very few women leaders of our healthcare system over time. And I saw what she had to go through just to get respect. Yet her counterparts didn't have to worry about that, because they happened to be males or they happened to be a physician. But what she would do is instead of fighting against that, she would always say, " I'm here to serve." She would go and be that nurse, CEO. She would go put those scrubs on when times were tough or times were busy. And you know what? The staff respected her so much because they saw somebody who, yeah, she was the CEO, but she was also just one of them.
Dane Groeneveld: Yeah, that's a great story as well. It's funny, I'm also the son of a nurse, and I've always valued that highly. And I like the way you use the word serve, because a lot of people will associate care and empathy and other words with nurses. But actually, serve is a very concrete, strong, and relevant term for what they're doing.
Geoffrey Roche: Yeah, I think when you look at... I mean people know my bias, but the reality of it is nurses are the backbone and the cornerstone of our healthcare system. And when you look at what they do every day within this global healthcare environment, it truly is service. They walk in to the front lines, they walk in at some of the most difficult times. And yet still to this day, they're not reimbursed for the care that they provide in the same way that others are. And so it's just an interesting dynamic. But what I've always seen through working for a CEO that was a nurse, but then also living most of my life, if not all of it frankly, because my mom is still very involved in my life, and still as a nurse, retired now professionally, but still as a nurse to our family. A nurse never stops caring. I have vivid memories as a child, we'd be just driving on the road, there would be a car accident. My mom wouldn't think twice about pulling over, right away. And she would say to us as kids in the car, " Stay in the car, mom has to do her job." And she would do what she needed to do to make sure that that person was safe, up until the ambulance would arrive. And that's just what I grew up with. And it has a huge impact on you.
Dane Groeneveld: Huge impact. Yeah, it does. And it's interesting, because a lot of people don't get to see the impact of what their parents do, who their parents serve at work, but that's a great example. And so just thinking about how that shapes passions, values, behaviors as you are finding as you go into your career, it's really powerful. So as we shift gears to today's role, so workforce development, Siemens Healthineers, big organization. What is workforce development? How are you getting to play out some of your superpowers in that realm?
Geoffrey Roche: Yeah, so let me say, obviously the largest organization I've ever served in. Very corporate and certainly learning a lot. And let me just give the caveat so that I don't hear from our marketing team that what I say is Geoffrey and not Siemens. But I think workforce development, to your point, is one of the most challenging aspects of all of our society today. And when you think of the future of work, when you think of the future of education, we're at a really interesting inflection point, not just in the United States, but globally. And so throughout my career, I've been blessed to be involved in all of these topics. I've worked in healthcare on the administration side, then worked in higher ed on the administration side. I've been faculty at various institutions, and also have been a leader throughout my career as well. And so when I look at workforce development, I'm in a position now where I also have the opportunity to really look at how I bring industry and education together to think of what are new, innovative, transformational, scalable, and sustainable solutions to help the workforce. And what most people don't realize is that imaging... And those of us, you and I will get this because of being sons of nurses. But imaging plays such a huge role in all facets of the care delivery system. And when you don't have enough staff to run equipment on an MRI, or on an X- ray, or on a different diagnostic, whether it's ultrasound or cardiac related, the patient waits and it's the nurses and others who have to deal with that wait. And sometimes they wait days, and sometimes they wait hours, sometimes they wait a couple minutes. But the reality of it is we don't have the workforce to do that, care is delayed, access to care is not happening. And so a lot of it is focused on those types of initiatives.
Dane Groeneveld: That's neat. So you are looking at workforce development in a context of your existing workforce, your future workforce. Supply chain and customer workforce as well, does it go the full spectrum?
Geoffrey Roche: Yeah. And also, how do we engage the youth to be more interested in serving in these critical roles? How do we further engage and support our higher ed institutions, particularly at the community college level? So that they have the critical support that allows them to do what they do best, which is educate the future healthcare professionals of this country and across the globe. And then within that ecosystem, how do we also think about diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging? Because as all of us know, if you walk into a healthcare system today, generally for certain populations, you don't see people who look like you. And we know that care is impacted by that. We know data, research, etc. have pointed that out. And so we also have to really be intentional in that space too. And that's where leaders can be helpful too, to really say, " Hey, my team doesn't really look like the community we serve, and I've got to address that."
Dane Groeneveld: Yeah. I like the way you've phrased that. A lot of people will come up with different descriptions of what DEIB means to them, but the one I love the most is one you just shared, which is are we representative of the community that we serve? Because that is real when you've got a customer interface, whether it's healthcare or any other customer. And it's a great place to start. If service is being delivered locally, why aren't you working with local education institutions, churches, whatever it is to get people in and educated and excited for being a part of that work?
Geoffrey Roche: Exactly. And it's that connection, right? When you look at community engagement, I was blessed in my early hospital administration days to lead community engagement. And when I look at the impact that we collectively had in that space, that never leaves me. Because to your point, it's churches, it's workforce boards, it's schools, it's community- based organizations. And that's really where you see transformation happening.
Dane Groeneveld: Yeah. You've used that word a few times now, Geoffrey, transformation. It's not an often associated word with people in their jobs, but tell me a little bit more about what it means to you and how you are seeing it have impact.
Geoffrey Roche: I have always been a firm believer that if our educational systems are set up right, and then through education as you come into the workplace through mobility, whether that's career, economic, mobility, we should be setting up the system in a way that allows a person to be transformed. And so for me, it's that idea that we may be serving a population that's coming from a place of being a disadvantaged population. But systemically today, the system is set up to not help them succeed. That's the reality. But if we intentionally create ways to help them, not just give them hope, but actually create processes, programs, initiatives that will help them, coach them, mentor them, support them along the way, they have an opportunity to experience the same level of transformation that many of us that are more privileged have experienced in a different way. And so for me, it's just that element. When I look at what my educational experiences were like, they were very transformational. I got to travel the world. I got to serve around the world. I got to spend time in various different governmental settings. I got to be an intern on Capitol Hill. Those things were very transformational for me. But again, I'm a child of white privilege. I had that opportunity. Not everyone gets to. And so for me, it's how do we make sure that systemically we take that on, so that others have a more equitable chance of that opportunity?
Dane Groeneveld: Yeah, that's a great explanation. It's interesting. It reminds me, a few people that I follow have been talking more and more about the role that public service, civil service could play for high school leavers. And in some countries it's military service. In other countries, it's more of a broader public service. And don't get me wrong, it has its pros and cons. Talk about transformative. It's a massive transformational project to undertake. But when you just listen at a granular level to why people are excited about it, something that I often hear is, " Well, it would give our youth an opportunity to see how the system works, to play different roles, to get some muscle memory of what it feels like to be on a team serving and performing important duties." And you hear of people like you've just shared, that their early service experience really shaped their careers and their awareness of what they love. Because most people, it's kind of inbuilt what they're going to love, but they're not aware of it and what they're good at. So it just kind of moves them down that pathway.
Geoffrey Roche: It's interesting you say that. Because when I was in high school, I actually was an intern in a local state senator's office. And that experience is what taught me the art of customer service. Because obviously, it was an elected official. Some liked, some loved, some hated. And you'd be on the phone answering those calls, and sometimes you were on for an hour about them, how angry they were about a utility bill, to how angry they were about their property taxes, to somebody that you were able to help get prescription drug support. And what I learned in that process was the art of listening. There were times where I wanted to just respond, but that wouldn't have done anything in that case. But what I was able to accomplish was listening, and giving them hope at times, and helping them navigate what we know can be very bureaucratic and very difficult. And then I had that same experience when I was a college student on The Hill where I got to answer those calls, which only got a little bit more interesting, because that was 2007, and it was entering the economic downturn. But again, what it reminded me of to your point was if you can have civility, which I wish our nation could again, we could really accomplish a lot together. So it's interesting when you look back on those experiences, I definitely know how much it's impacted me.
Dane Groeneveld: So with the programs you're doing, workforce development wise, are you creating some internships, some early school experiences? Even if it's more of like a day trip versus a long program, are you guys doing that in the community?
Geoffrey Roche: Absolutely. Yeah. And we partner with community- based organizations. And sometimes it's partnering with a community- based organization that's literally rooted in the community, so that you can get a group of students to actually come into a healthcare environment, see the imaging equipment, understand how it works, get a sense of how they could be part of that future. And then also, sometimes it's also bringing clinicians and other team members out to talk to them about, for example, our team did an event a couple months ago in Philadelphia and with Penn Medicine, where we actually screened hundreds of women free for mammograms. And unfortunately, many were ended up having to get referred for what would've been potential breast cancer. While we did that, there was also an effort with churches, and pulled together numerous churches so that we could educate the congregation on not just the warning signs of all these different areas of disease, but then also talk to them about the career opportunities that exist. Because again, if we can help get populations, particularly in this case, Black and brown populations into the profession, we have a better chance to help detect early because they can relate to the patients that they're serving. And so intentional efforts around that type of work is critical.
Dane Groeneveld: Yeah, yeah. No, that's a big one. And what's also interesting, we talk a lot about teams at work. We also talk about teams in the community and the family as a team. And the reality is if there are more nurses or technicians in your social circle, then talk about psychological safety. You might feel more comfortable going and talking to that friend who's a nurse or a technician about your problem, or your wife's problem, or your daughter's problem, or mom's problem, before you even go and enter the healthcare system. So I think thinking about that ecosystem, community impact is really cool.
Geoffrey Roche: Yeah. And it's that relatability, right? I mean, I saw that in my early healthcare career. We had a surgeon that one of the first things he said when he came into his role as the chief of cardiothoracic surgery was he said, " What are we doing with the NAACP?" And at the time we weren't. And he said, " That's got to change." And so I can remember he and I went over, and he happened to be a longtime member. And what came out of that was very, very interventional type of efforts to help the population around cardiac disease and in different things around physical activity and such. Again, yet we could have been doing that, but we wouldn't have been as successful because we didn't relate in the way that he related. They opened up to him, they trusted him. And then they would trust the rest of the team because he was encouraging them to do so.
Dane Groeneveld: That's neat. What I'm seeing on that relatability front too is I'm seeing a lot more reverse mentoring programs where you're bringing in junior people within the organization, and having them work with an individual who isn't as relatable to be candid. Do you see much of that in the programs that you design and support?
Geoffrey Roche: Absolutely. Yeah. And I think that aspect of mentorship is such an interesting one, right? Because I think if you looked across the board in most organizations, we haven't really built out intentional mentorship for so much. And when I look at my healthcare experience, while we didn't necessarily have built out mentorship, I was blessed to have leaders who just did it. And because they did it, we did it. And I guess maybe I should take that back because I can remember our personal development plans that we had to do actually talked about mentorship. So technically in a way, we did have it as an aspect of that plan. And four times a year, I would sit down with my senior vice president and he would say to me, " This is where you're at with this." But every week he was still mentoring me. And so much of what he mentored me is what created me. And then when I was leading teams and there, even after that where I've now led teams of all different ages, oftentimes more experienced than me, it was really his mentorship that allowed me to do that. Because I can remember the first time they said to me, " You're going to take on this department." I was like, " Well, I don't think that's a good idea because those people aren't going to trust me. I'm much younger." And he said, " Please." He said, " Just prove them. Prove to them who you are. You're there to help them. You're not there to tell them what to do. You're there to help them." And it was really through a lot of listening, a lot of getting to know them, connecting at the heart with them, understanding what made them most passionate, that I was able to help them, ultimately not just us achieve success, but also put them on a path that was very different than what they experienced before.
Dane Groeneveld: Yeah. It's interesting tying that listening and mentoring together. A lot of leaders have grown up, particularly some of those that are a little ahead of us. They've grown up in a time where it was expected of them that the leader was the fountain of truth and knowledge, and that the buck stops with them, they've got to make the decisions. And now we're seeing for numerous reasons, work's become more complex. There's way more tools, there's way more information. We're seeing that actually listening, mentoring, facilitating the knowledge from the right people on the team, and the decision with the right information is becoming more the art of leadership. I think it's always been that way, but I think it's becoming more and more a focus for so many leaders in so many organizations.
Geoffrey Roche: I agree. And I think it's absolutely necessary for the future of work, because I think other generations, my own included, are saying enough is enough. I, for one, struggle if I'm in an environment with leaders who aren't inclusive or leaders who don't deal with problems and the challenges that... Because I know it's going to tear other people down or it's going to hold the really good ones back. And I definitely been always one that tends to get into good trouble in that space, because even I can remember in my hospital days, our director of organizational development, who to this day is a dear friend and coach of mine would say to me, she's like, " Wow, you aren't afraid to call another leader when you see that they're not following the values." And I would always do it respectfully, but I never wanted it to become rampant and just further impact the organization. And I struggle to say this, but I'm still fearful that when I look across so many organizations, we don't have enough leaders who really either feel safe enough, or even feel they're in a position to say to another leader, " Stop doing that. Don't you realize what you're doing to those wonderful team members?" I'm just so fearful of that because I don't see it enough.
Dane Groeneveld: Yeah. I love the way you framed it as good trouble. It's kind of like an oxymoron, I guess. But actually the fact that it's leads with good, it would be great if you could see that in more teams, wouldn't it? If leaders felt like they had-
Geoffrey Roche: We know that's a civil rights term, right? So former-
Dane Groeneveld: I didn't know that.
Geoffrey Roche: Former congressman John Lewis who coined that term. In fact, I was blessed to see Congressman Lewis speak several years ago at my alma mater. And when we were there, he said to all of us when we were there, he said, " You all, not just in the community, but in your workplaces, have a duty to get into good trouble."
Dane Groeneveld: I love that.
Geoffrey Roche: I was inspired not just by that evening, but every time I saw him speak on the Capitol floor. Obviously during the marches, obviously he was there with Martin Luther King Jr. during some of the most brutal times of the civil rights era and just passed a couple of years ago. But his message on good trouble is an important one, because it's basically saying go against the systemic things that cause injustice as well as go against the things that hurt other people, and be willing to get into trouble because you know you're doing it for good. And that's not easy, because to your point, especially in your career, that could be risky. But I've come to learn, and with phenomenal group of mentors and others that if you don't, if I make the decision not to, others are only going to continue to suffer.
Dane Groeneveld: Yeah. Yeah, you're absolutely right. And actually, there's psychological safety, allow people to say what they're concerned about. But good trouble is like psychological safety on steroids, right? Because there is going to be trouble. Systems are designed to last, and they're not easy to break. So regardless of how much psychological safety there is, you are going to be upsetting some people. You're going to be changing the way things need to be done. And finding a way to invite people to embrace that can't be easy. I mean, you hear a lot of people talk about having good codified behaviors that they can stand behind, but that's only part of the story.
Geoffrey Roche: Yeah, it's not easy. But I'll tell you, I mean, having done it multiple times, and also having done it with other leaders at times... I can remember an example once where I had had to say to another executive in a meeting, because it was in front of my whole team, that they were inappropriate. And I remember thinking, " Oh my, this could go really, really south." But it's a matter of how you phrase it, and it's a matter of how you address it. And so I knew that I couldn't make it about what they just did or said. I had to make it about how we in this community aren't going to tolerate it.
Dane Groeneveld: So how do you do that? Can we play that out? So if I say something inappropriate, how do you respond to me with all the others in the room?
Geoffrey Roche: So when this happened in that scenario, and I kind of chuckled because some of my team members were messaging me while it was happening because it was a virtual meeting. And it was one of those moments where I didn't think before I spoke, but all I do remember thinking is I can't let this go unaddressed. And it was said so openly. So I just came out and I said, " Help me understand why you would say it that way." And the person immediately took their seat, went back in their seat, even though it was virtual, I could see. And they said, " You know what? What I said is not what I really meant to be said."
Dane Groeneveld: That's wonderful.
Geoffrey Roche: And then I came back and I said, " Well, then maybe you need to think about how you want us to hear it." I remember one of my team members, who I had worked with in our prior life said to me, " Wow, you've grown up." Because back in the early days of my career, I probably would've just said something to the effect of, " That's just wrong."
Dane Groeneveld: Cancel.
Geoffrey Roche: And that wouldn't have been reacted as well. And I'll never forget it, because she messaged me right away. She goes, " Wow, I've seen so much growth in you," and I check on it. I said, " Well, hopefully," because she worked with me in my early days and then worked with me, and we still work together now. It wasn't at my current organization, just give that caveat, because people will be like, " Oh, here we go." But no, very interesting scenario. And what I've learned is those types of questions are really critical. " Why would you think that, or why would you think that it's okay to say it that way?" I had an experience about it two years ago where I was part of a small group in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania along with our state government where we went through, and I was just a private sector participant, in anti- systemic racism training. And one of the individuals in the training shared how he wore his hair a specific way, and someone came into an elevator once and said to him, " Is that what you think is professional?" And his response is what made all the difference. His response was, " Yes, I do, and that is who I am. If you don't like it, you don't have to look at me." And guess what? That person who said that was no longer in the organization after that, because what they said was offensive and it was wrong. But how he responded didn't inflame the situation.
Dane Groeneveld: Didn't aggravate-
Geoffrey Roche: Didn't cause any more issues around it, but that person was held accountable. And so it's those moments where we just have to think about, our words can either be transformational, or they can tear people down. And I think as leaders particularly, we have to think of those moments.
Dane Groeneveld: Yeah. Yeah. I love that story with the hair. It reminds me of, actually, on a lighter note, what my wife will say to me when I raise something. She'll be like, " That sounds like a you problem, Dane."
Geoffrey Roche: Yeah.
Dane Groeneveld: Even my kids have picked up on that now.
Geoffrey Roche: It's powerful.
Dane Groeneveld: It is powerful. And that question, I'm going to restate the question that you shared with the leader on the virtual meeting. " Help me understand why you would say it that way." There's so much grace in that question, because you didn't just sabotage that leader. You didn't label them, tag them as narrow- minded, bigoted, whatever else. You just said, " Hey, help me understand." You give them a chance in the moment to reflect and retract, or apologize, or realize what they've just said, because we're all human. And as a good friend of mine, Shane Foster, who talks a lot on diversity, equity, inclusion shares is we're a product of what we've grown up with. And you can't expect to just turn on the perfect button. So people are going to say things. They're under stress, they're under pressure. And it's not to say that it's okay that they say those things. But if you as a colleague give someone an opportunity to correct that and be very intentional and real about that, that's powerful for teams.
Geoffrey Roche: Yeah. And it's interesting, right? Because to your point earlier, when other colleagues said to me, " Boy, you've grown a lot." That was on my team. As we talked about that afterwards, I reminded her that we had both worked for the same senior vice president for many, many years. And I said to her, " Don't you remember this situation?" And she's like, " Oh, yeah." She's like, " I actually thought he was in the room when you said it." Because I was so blessed to have had him as a leader, because I can remember a similar situation where he faced something like that. We were all in the room. Now, this was in person. And I thought he was going to go off the rails because of how angry he looked. And I remember he went back in his chair and phrased a question to another leader. Actually, it was the COO. And he said something to the effect of, " Is that what you think is really appropriate to say in front of everybody?" And I remember the whole room was like, whoa. And then she came back and said, " You're 100% right. I should have reflected before I responded." And so it's just those types of things that I always tell people you don't want to forget those experiences, because they will come back to help us in how we process it, because we're all going to face it at some point.
Dane Groeneveld: Yeah. No, that's super neat. I think that's going to be a powerful share for any of our listeners or anyone who checks in on some of inaudible notes from this conversation. As I think more towards the benefit for teams, we've talked about some really good principles, practices. We've talked about what you're doing in workforce development to really get into the community, build the work and education interface. But when you're doing all of that work, is there a byproduct? Is there a second order impact for the teams that are already in your organization, for the way that these engagements supporting these workforce development programs helps them be better back in their day job?
Geoffrey Roche: Yeah, I think without question, right? Because I think it's a multitude. And in some ways, I think it also gives hope to the existing workforce to think of what the future workforce is going to be like. It also demonstrates to them the idea of support for professions, a profession that they're in, where they have the opportunity to really see the future. And I think when you think about the future of work particularly, it also presents great opportunities from a mentorship and volunteerism perspective. We regularly, especially in healthcare for some time, have leveraged other professionals to talk about the roles that they're in. But if you look at nursing, for example, nursing students have historically been assigned to nurses who probably aren't the best as a preceptor. And that's also true across other aspects of healthcare. And so it's no wonder we have a systemic challenge in workforce when we haven't intentionally made sure we have the right people actually serving as preceptors, serving as trainers. And so these types of things to me all come together. And I think it further reinforces the need for us to truly be, especially in healthcare, a learning and development culture. To me, you can never spend too much on learning and development. And I think for executives, they really have to think about making sure that those departments are better resourced. They have to think about how it is and why it is that they're supporting those areas. Because back to that transformation, if you go through a four year program or a two year program, and you're out your clinical experience, and you're dealing with somebody who's just plain out ugly in how they treat you, why do you think you're going to stay in the profession if that's how your first experience is? Chances are you're going to think, " Oh my gosh, I got into the wrong place the wrong time." So those types of things I think are really critical too, because it just reinforces the importance that we all play in really thinking about that next generation workforce.
Dane Groeneveld: Yeah, I like that. So hope for the future, support for the profession they're in, and that mentoring, volunteering, exposure. You touched on learning and development there, particularly in reference to the mentoring, volunteering. How much does your role in workforce development interface with the corporate L& D department?
Geoffrey Roche: A lot. Absolutely. I mean, it depends on the healthcare systems, but very much so. And I regularly say too, healthcare is in transformation in this space too, right? Healthcare was one of the slower industries to get chief learning officers, which is always interesting to me. And I get myself into good trouble when I say this, but I also don't think it should report to human resources. And I say this all the time when I nationally speak, and colleagues of mine challenge me on this. But to me, learning and development is so important that it should go right to the CEO. Because the reality of it is that it can't just be viewed as human resources from the perspective of checking the box. It's not just a retention thing. It's not just a recruitment thing. It is truly about career mobility. It is truly about upskilling. It's truly about stackable credentials. And really, it's about a personal development plan and aligning a person's aspirations and dreams to the needs of the organization. And so it's truly a big aspect. And so I'm encouraged that I'm seeing more and more chief learning officers who are being brought into organizations, but I just hope that they are able to do what they need to do, because their role is so critical when it comes to workforce development.
Dane Groeneveld: Yeah. No, I'm glad you said that, and it's good, good trouble reporting to the CEO. We've been toying within some of our businesses with learning and development. And I say toying because it's not as resourced or intentioned as it should be. When you're a small to medium business, it's hard to throw a lot of resources. So the first move for many organizations is, " Well, let's go and pay for LinkedIn learning," or, " Let's go and subscribe to an external provider of some core courses, coursework." And then it's a little bit of a self- service. " It's here if you want it, go use it." And you're not really tying it into the personal development plans, the organizational strategy and outlook. I mean, it's a huge lift to get learning and development. So I love the way you called that out.
Geoffrey Roche: Yeah. And I've been blessed to know many. And I think the ones that really excel are the ones that understand that learning and development is strategic in healthcare. And if you do it right, it is by far one of the most unique value propositions you could have, both for the staff, and for your patients. Because to your earlier point on psychological safety, if you're an organization that truly values learning and development, you're an organization that's going to see everything as a performance improvement opportunity, and that we're going to grow. We may fail, we may make mistakes, but we're going to grow together. And we're all going to look back on that, pull the team together, and learn. And I think the reason I argue so much with the HR aspect is when I was in my healthcare system, it was earlier. We didn't have a chief learning officer. But our CEO was the chief learning officer. I can remember when I came back from a conference once and I said to her, " We need to create a patient and family advisory council." Very early on, way before it became the big thing. I went to a conference. And just like any leader would, she said, " Well, let's talk to the CMO and the CNO and the COO and get their input." And some of them are like, " Nah, nah." And she said to them, " What are you afraid of? What are you afraid of? Are you afraid of the patients in the family telling you what your team is doing wrong, that you're doing wrong?" She's like, " Is that what you're afraid of?" And they were like, " Well, we get patient surveys." She said, " Yeah, that's after the fact. You don't want to have a group that's going to tell you what we could be doing better all the time?" And so finally she said, " Hey, you don't want to implement it? That's fine. I will." And so I'll never forget it. We get to the first meeting, and before we get in, she said to them, she said, " Look, you don't want to be a part of it? You don't get to talk."
Dane Groeneveld: inaudible-
Geoffrey Roche: "Talk first, and you're quiet, and you'll get to reflect in the second meeting." And what happened was not only did they all come on board, they saw the power of it. And what they saw was truly transformational, because it wasn't this person did this wrong. It was, how do we improve systems of care to make it a better experience for everybody? And I think it's those types of things that are really critical. And that's what I see in the chief learning officer roles is just, you know, I mean, people that do this work, they're not thinking about individual people. They're always thinking about how do we improve the system that ultimately makes it better for every person in the system.
Dane Groeneveld: Yeah, and that's a good call too. A lot of people, I like the way you tie it into performance improvement and a systems approach to performance improvement. Because there's a lot of people out there that have said, " The CEO should be the chief storyteller, or the CEO should be the chief coaching officer or the chief engagement officer." And it seems like every month there's a different flavor of what a CEO should be. So the reality is they've got to be a lot of different things. But the example of your former CEO there, just getting in, rolling the sleeves up, and embracing learning, I think it's critical in healthcare. But with generative AI, with some of the other changes we're seeing, whether it's retail, whether it's manufacturing, whether it's construction, my sense is that's going to be true everywhere you go. I think leaders at every level, not just the CEO, have to have that inbuilt learning mindset going forward.
Geoffrey Roche: Yeah, I agree. The mindset piece is really critical.
Dane Groeneveld: Yeah, that's really cool. So it feels like we could just go on talking for a long time on some great topics, and you keep just hitting these absolute pearls of wisdom, Geoffrey. So maybe I'll let you dictate how we wrap this up. We've had some great talking points from good trouble. We talked a lot about the power of mentoring and listening, about really getting that experience to serve. Whether it's through what you saw of your mother as a nurse, what your own personal experiences have been out there serving through internships. And then getting into the community and representing members of your community in your training, education, future workforce. So much good stuff there. As you think about the future of teams at work, what is it that you are most optimistic about? What is it that you're working hardest towards that you think our listeners would take away as a great ending note on this conversation?
Geoffrey Roche: Yeah. I think I'm certainly optimistic, particularly around the focus that I'm seeing more and more organizations think about experience. And that ultimately, the experience is not just for the customers that we serve, but also for our teams that serve our customers. And I am definitely encouraged by that. I definitely hope we'll see continued efforts in that. And I'm encouraged, but then I'm also hopeful that with the challenges we see in certain states that are making it harder for organizations to continue to advance diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging, that those leaders, those boards of those organizations will be willing to get into good trouble. Because literally, patients' lives are on the line. When you talk about issues of health equity, if you don't advance initiatives that can truly create a more equitable healthcare system, then we will continue to have maternal mortality rates significantly higher for our Black and brown patients in ways that they shouldn't be. And I don't think a governor or a legislature should be dictating that just on a philosophical value when you think about quality of life. And so my hope and desire is that people will be willing to do what's right, because ultimately, it should not be a political issue. This should really be a human issue. And I think when we take the time to understand why it's a human issue, we can vividly see why it is. And so that's what I'm hopeful that people won't in certain states stop those initiatives, because we can't, or we'll just continue to be on a downward spiral. And we'll also lose more workforce because people will go to other states and they'll serve in other states, and so we'll be in a much more difficult position.
Dane Groeneveld: Yeah. Well, I appreciate you for shedding light on that, Geoffrey. I think it's extremely important, but it's also very real. It's data- driven. It's happening now. It's people's lives, as you say. So often when we talk about hopes for the future, they're aspirational, and they don't come attached to real people in the way that this one does. So I appreciate you sharing that.
Geoffrey Roche: You're welcome.
Dane Groeneveld: If anyone wants to reach out and find you for some of your wisdom, insight, passion in how you're driving workforce development in healthcare or in other spaces, where do they best connect with you and your content, Geoffrey?
Geoffrey Roche: Yeah, they can connect on LinkedIn. That'd be the best place, and happy to connect with anybody at any time, and happy to talk and see how we can get into good trouble together.
Dane Groeneveld: Awesome. Well, thanks again for your time today.
Geoffrey Roche: Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1: Thank you for joining us. Remember that by embracing vulnerability, trusting our intuition, and approaching challenges with compassion, we not only strengthen our teams, but also pave the way for a future where collaboration thrives. If you're hungry for more insights, strategies, and research on collaboration, head over to thefutureofteamwork. com. There you can join our mailing list to stay updated with the latest episodes, and get access to exclusive content tailored to make your team thrive. Together, we can build the future of teamwork. Until next time.
DESCRIPTION
The workplace is one of the most important areas of a person's life to have psychological safety, connection, and community. On today's episode of The Future of Teamwork, host and HUDDL3 CEO Dane Groeneveld sits down with Geoffrey Roche to talk about these ideas and more in the healthcare industry. Geoffrey is the Director of Workforce Development for Siemens Healthineers and speaks about the importance of proving who you are to people to build trust within workplaces. Geoffrey also talks about the role of addressing culture-discrepant behaviors and using probing questions to gain alignment with core values. Listen in and learn about why Geoffrey is optimistic about a future with more focus, and organizations that stir up 'good trouble' for the benefit of building a better system.
Today's Host

Dane Groeneveld
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