Navigating greatness and the state of hybrid work with Shaun McCambridge
Dane Groeneveld: Welcome to the Future of Teamwork podcast. My name's Dane Groeneveld, oval, CEO of HUDDL3 Group, and I'm really pleased to be welcoming a good friend and colleague from Australia, Shaun McCambridge from Stellar Recruitment. Welcome, Shaun.
Shaun McCambridge: Thanks, Dane. Always enjoy our chats. Looking forward to having a chat today.
Dane Groeneveld: Yeah, absolutely. It has been a while since we last sat down. I think last time we sat down, it was probably over a coffee down at Palm Beach in January.
Shaun McCambridge: Yeah. Fond memories, good conversations as always. Good to catch up with your family, but particularly enjoyed the couple of surfs we got as well.
Dane Groeneveld: That's right. It was a decent little run there in the summer. Perhaps as a starting point, you can give us a little bit more background on your personal and business story, because there's a lot of exciting stuff. Good story there.
Shaun McCambridge: Yeah. My business that we've got out here in Australia and New Zealand in fact was founded in 2006. We operate across Australia, New Zealand primarily. We have done quite a bit of work abroad as you know, in addition to the work we do here in Australia, New Zealand. We have about 100 internal staff and we have about 700 staff on hire to our customers. And we do anything from skilled trades right up to the executive C suite, across a range of different industries. But it's a business we founded from pretty humble beginnings, proud of where it's come. Lots of learnings along the way. And obviously that's where you and I met prior to that business kicking off in a former life, working for a big multinational. But always had entrepreneurial, I guess, endeavors. My family had their own transport business. So I got exposed to that as a young child and always felt like I wanted to take control of my own destiny. But enjoy teaming up with others to embark on that journey. And I've always enjoyed sport as you know. So I guess it's taking that team dynamic to the corporate environment. And I think there's a lot of similarities between the dynamics of sport as there is in business as well.
Dane Groeneveld: Yeah, absolutely. In fact, I'm still hurting from that cricket match we put on, the Australian, New Zealand cricket match, which must have been at about 2010 where you guys came out and gave us a spanking.
Shaun McCambridge: It was a good game, mate. It's always plenty of rivalry between the two nations, even at our levels. But as I recall, mate, I think you performed rather well as always, being competitive and passionate about cricket. But no love loss between the two nations, which is great and a great sport. We both enjoy the sport of cricket as we do many other things like surfing and rugby further to business.
Dane Groeneveld: Yeah, that's it. That's it. You mentioned entrepreneurial background with the family, having a transportation business. I know in a conversation you had with me, that was probably around that same time as the cricket match, about 10, 12 years ago, you gave me some really good counsel. You said," Hey, Dane, one of my uncles that I used to talk to said,'You get to a point in time in your career where you'll ask you yourself the what if question. What if I'd given that a bit more of a shot?'" That's something I've always admired about you is that you've always gone forward and given things a shot. Where did this origin come from, Stellar Recruitment, from you and the guys saying," Hey, we're going to go out there and build our own business."?
Shaun McCambridge: I think firstly, my mindset when I left New Zealand to come to Australia to have a bit of a gap year as it were at the time, it was always to come back and run the family business. That was always my dream at that point in time. And falling into recruitment as we all do was really only a stop gap. But about six to eight months into that stop gap, two things happened. One, I was really enjoying and I really felt connected to recruitment. I liked the art of trying to find the right job for the right person, but also the benefits that come with that, the challenge. The fact that you run your own business within a business. And so I was enjoying that, enjoying some early success. But then I received a phone call from my father one day and he said after 25 years, his business partner had approached him about selling the business. And he goes," I think I want to sell as well." So in a heartbeat, my dream or the trajectory at that stage was shattered. But after probably a week or two of processing that I thought," Well, maybe I could take that endeavor to run my own business away from the family business to start my own business." I was really lucky at the time and still do, had a great mate and business partner that was equally as entrepreneurial. His family had had agricultural businesses back in New Zealand as well, and were quite like- minded. So we got to talking, we seen an opportunity to take more relationship driven approach to recruitment. We were both working for big companies, and obviously with big companies come big structures and a bit more red tape than entrepreneurial endeavors. So we felt like we could take that relationship driven approach, one where we really care for our staff, really invest in our staff, and hopefully if we do that, they'll produce great work for our customers and candidates. In November, 2006 in a very small office, there were three of us at the time, we kicked off, and the rest is history. It's been amazing. We've had many trials and tribulations, good markets, downturns, all sorts of curve balls come our way in between, but we're still standing all this time later, which we're really proud of. And there's some amazing people working for us. It's been a bit of a dream really. We've learned so much, we've done so much. I think some of the fondest memories are definitely the progress some of the people that have worked for us have made. Coming in at low levels and then going on to develop great careers, buy houses, have kids, seeing the kids in our schools, do nice stuff. And I guess I've always seen Stellar as a vehicle to help you achieve things outside of work. And I think Stellar's done that to a lot of people, including me.
Dane Groeneveld: It's funny you mention that when you started out with Robbie and you had that view, that vision to think about relationships, think about the role of people, not just at work, but out of work, you guys were pretty leading edge at that point in time. That's all the rage right now, but it certainly wasn't in 2006.
Shaun McCambridge: Yeah. I always felt like if you look after your clients, your accountants and your staff, then hopefully the profits will look after themselves. Whereas I think in business, a lot of people go into business maybe because they see this big opportunity to create wealth or whatever, and focus on that bottom line, which is critically important. Without the bottom line health, you don't have a business, but we felt like if we do the right thing by clients, accountants and particularly staff, hopefully that could manifest in profits and it's a byproduct of focusing on the other things first.
Dane Groeneveld: Yeah, absolutely. And it's a good feed stock for teamwork. You've obviously had some very successful teams there throughout the different market cycles. All businesses go through change as they grow, but you've been consistently able to pull these great teams within teams together, which has been cool to watch. As you look at it, is there any particular definition of good teamwork or formula for good teamwork that you're starting to get a cleaner or crisper grasp of over the years?
Shaun McCambridge: Good question, good question. I think the first thing when it comes to teams with the risk of moving past groupthink, I think the first thing is like-minded people. I think in the world of recruitment, and it may be true of other industries and certainly in sport, I think firstly, you want people that want to win. You want people that have got a collective desire to be successful, do their best work, help other people do their best work. I think if you get that commonality in place first, that's really critical. Within that I think you want that sense of team. There's egos within everyone, but you don't want individuals dominating to the expense of the team. You want people that want to compete and want to win and want to prevail, and amongst themselves, but equally it's not cutthroat. They want to see other people prosper. And you want to see this positive competitiveness where if you do well, I remember you doing well back in the day, that inspired me to do well. I didn't want to cut you off of the knees. I wanted to buy you beer and say, thanks. But behind the scenes, I was saying to myself," How the hell do I beat Dane? I've got to work harder, I've got to work smarter." So you want to create that environment where it forces people to get better. And people are willing to inspire people to get better through osmosis or sharing their learnings on that side of things. So I think that's really, really important. I think we've always tried to spot potential. So the right attitudes, the right mindsets, the right work ethics, but then enable that through development within our business, external courses. We've had people do degrees, diplomas, MBAs. We've had performance psychologists. We bring speakers in, all that sort of stuff. So it's really about trying to maximize and make the most of the talent we've got as well. Most of our success stories within that team dynamic are homegrown, where we've brought people in, in a junior status and we've brought them up in the business. I think that's been really good for retention. They've had no habits that may or may not be positive to the way we do business. We can build them the way we want to. I think a big thing we've been huge on that team context is celebrating success. We've done some wonderful end of year high achievers trips to some amazing locations like Hawaii, Fiji, Bali, et cetera, which is really important to celebrate it. But within that, one of the big things we celebrate is our values. We've got three values. And every month we vote on our values and we get a Stellar champion and that's against our values. But then at the end of the year, there is award for Stellar values. So I think values, to wrap up all the other comments I've I've made is just, is really important to get that alignment throughout to make sure that it's a sustainable team culture that endures good times and bad.
Dane Groeneveld: That's cool. What are the three values at Stellar?
Shaun McCambridge: Greatness, positivity and leadership. So once upon a time we had six, and I was lucky enough to go up to MIT and do an entrepreneurial master's program at MIT. And there was a session on values, and sadly, even me, I struggled to recite our six. So in that moment I felt like it was too much and we weren't living them. So I went back to the business and I said to the guys, a couple of prominent, long term people, I said," What are our values?" And most people got to four easily and they stumbled to six. And I thought, this isn't right. So we went through a team exercise where we got everyone in the room and we got everyone to vote and nominate, and we distilled that down with alignment and similarities to get to those three values. It's just been a lot simpler and easier. I think we're much better at referring to them, whether it's in performance reviews, conversations, Stellar champions, and of course, our end of season awards.
Dane Groeneveld: That's neat. I like the way you embed that into the fabric of the business and the celebration cycle, and the performance review piece.
Shaun McCambridge: Yeah, we were certainly guilty-
Dane Groeneveld: That's a good way to get people to live it.
Shaun McCambridge: Absolutely. We were certainly guilty of they were words on a wall at one stage. It was an exercise that was great. And then they went on the wall and we forgot about them if I'm honest. So much different now, I think they're much more lived, but certainly you've got to pay careful and constant attention to it.
Dane Groeneveld: And that greatness value, that's a really interesting one. You see a lot of the same words filter through lots of different companies' websites when you look at values, but greatness isn't necessarily one you see out there all that often. What does that mean to your team? How do they live the behaviors of greatness?
Shaun McCambridge: I think it's about doing your best and your behaviors aligning with seeking to do your best every day. Now, of course, you're constantly evolving and constantly learning, but I think a bit of an intrinsic motivator for me is hopefully when we get to the end of the road without sounding too morbid, you feel like you've lived a full life. There's not too many what ifs, could haves. You feel like you've lived your potential, but it's not just living a life. It's living a great life where you've had a crack and you feel like you've done your best work. You've reached your potential. So I think for that, it's at different levels, whether it's an administrator or me, or whatever is, in every single task or moment or interaction, are you doing your best work? And I think it's seeking to do your best. It's not always that you're going to beat your competitors or your colleagues or whatever, but is that the greatest work you can do? I think it ties back to that Vince Lombardi quote, is," Winning is in everything, but wanting to is." Wanting to do great work. I don't like mediocrity. It frightens me, it scares me and it repels me. So back to that quote, you're not always going to do great work, but wanting to and genuinely trying to do great work, most moments most days is really, really important. So that's something that we try and encourage and promote and celebrate within the term.
Dane Groeneveld: I like that. It creates a real sense of going somewhere. There's a dynamism to it. It's interesting... Sorry, you go.
Shaun McCambridge: No, you go.
Dane Groeneveld: I was going to say it's interesting that Lombardi quote, because we've had a pretty good summer seven series with Riker, my 10, nearly 11 year old, and he's won every tournament this season, four tournaments in a row. And every tournament, the best part is the grinding, it's the getting the boys to wake up in the morning and start to really focus. We do a bit of meditation between the games. We started hitting the pads, trying to get physical. And you always fell flat when you win. Yeah, you go and get the trophy but you're like," Oh, it's over." The best part was actually seeing the team work together and want to win. That's the buzz. Once you've won, it's a bit of an anti- climax.
Shaun McCambridge: Yep, absolutely. It is, yeah. I think it's that challenge and the thrill of reaching those goals, it's important. But I think one of the things we've been guilty of at times is we set these goals, you hit these goals and as soon as you hit the goals, then, like you say, you're a bit flat and all the rest of it and you don't stop to celebrate it and you're onto the next goal. I think it's at risk of quoting a cliche," The journey's really important,". And maybe that's what you're referring to with Riker, it's the journey that it's challenging, it's all the rest of it. But when you look back on it, they're some of your fondest memories of working through some of those hard times to then prevail to get to that next goal and all the rest of it. I've certainly been guilty of getting stuck on the end goal too much, rather than enjoying the journey along the way. But it's really cool to hear that you're integrating some of that mindfulness and other tools or techniques to help the boys do their best work as well.
Dane Groeneveld: Yeah, absolutely. Which reminds me, one of your podcasts I really liked was with Dr. Tara Swart. Is that right?
Shaun McCambridge: Yep.
Dane Groeneveld: Neuroscience. She talked about some of those things like mindfulness and sleep and hydration, and you talk about helping people reach their potential, not just in work, but as people. So maybe that's an interesting topic to bounce on, which is, as the world of work's changed in the last 15, 20 years that we've been playing at it, where do you see more emphasis being placed on wellness within your team and at home in order to allow teams to be able to go further on those journeys?
Shaun McCambridge: I think a couple things that come to mind without any prior notice is I definitely think that home work demarcation is being demolished or removed. I think there's much more integration. I think it's much more accepted and understood and normal for life to get the way of work and work to get in the way of life. For example, yesterday, my daughter woke up not so well. I felt like the best thing to do was school holidays was hang around and help out. So I started work about 6: 30, but then through the course of the day, I yinged and yanged between work and movies and take my kids to basketball and hot chocolate, and then I'll work later. I think that was okay. I didn't feel bad about it and I don't feel my colleagues felt bad about it. Life was easier for me and my family as a result of that flexibility. But back in the day when you and I first started, you and I knew that if we weren't at the desk at 8:00 and we weren't at the stall there at 6: 00, with our tires done up, there was something wrong.
Dane Groeneveld: Yeah.
Shaun McCambridge: So it would've caused me stress, my family stress. I think that there's been a core evolution, but I think the other core evolution is the fact that it's okay. You and I were talking about some of our respective challenges with our children beforehand. Back in the day I'm not so sure our parents would've talked about that. You would've asked me," How's your family?" I would've said," Brilliant. They're great." I would've said," How's your family, Dane?" You would've said," Yeah. Awesome. All good." But behind the scenes, we would've both known, there was a few little challenges there for both of us. So it's much more normal to hear in the workforce that people can be a bit more vulnerable, whether it's me or our staff around that. We're about to have a performance and wellbeing coach take us on a journey through the next year, Nam Baldwin. If you've heard of Nam, he's done some work with Mick Fanning and Stephanie Gilmore and some big businesses over here, individuals and teams around how do they maintain positive wellbeing and mental health to help them achieve not only at work, but at home and set themselves up to be more resilient. So it's really cool that businesses like ours and others are embracing that. Whereas back in the day, there was a stigma. People are like," What do you mean that you're not feeling so good, Dane? That's weak. What's wrong with you?" Whereas now you're seeing business folk and sports folk come out and go," Well, I've got some mental health challenges and I'm struggling." And I think that's just normal. We talk about hamstring injuries or ankle injuries and that's okay. But I think in the future, it's going to get more and more normalized that I've got stresses or anxiety or challenges, whatever the case is. That's just normalized. Maybe it's more normalized in the US than what it is down here, but I think that'd be great because there's not a single person I've met in my life, successful or not that hasn't had some mental health challenges. When I get to know them and I get to talk to them, they've all had their challenges. I think it's really cool in today's environ that it's more normalized, but we're seeing the mixing emergence between home and work life becoming more flexible, I think, to the betterment of everyone.
Dane Groeneveld: And actually, that takes me back to that conversation we had had at Palm Beach when we were talking about kids in the schoolyard. I remember now. We were saying, when we grew up, it was school of hard knocks. Don't talk about your emotions. It's a good thing to have to deal with the bully in the schoolyard, because it toughened you up for the real world. But you made a great point, which initially I didn't agree with, but I've since thought a lot about which is the school is the environment where we need to teach these kids to be more compassionate towards each other, more open, more vulnerable, because that's a really interesting age where you build good habits for entering adult life. And unfortunately, we're bringing these kids out of school with no real language, no comfort to talk about where they're at on any given day from a mental health standpoint. Then they get into the work environment and they don't know how to have those conversations unless they're working for a leader that drives a culture of vulnerability and openness and wellness, which unfortunately isn't every company. In fact, it's still a small minority of companies in the world of work.
Shaun McCambridge: Yeah. I think hardships are important in the school yard as they are in life because that builds resilience. But I think giving our kids a toolbox of skills to navigate those challenges, whether it's normalizing the fact that life is a roller coaster, it's not just the straight line, or things like you're teaching Riker and the guys in their team around mindfulness. That's just a tool around calming the nerves, managing anxiety, staying a bit more calm in those key moments. It's just giving people a toolkit. Because I remember as a kid I wasn't always up all the time, I was down all the time, but I just kept it to myself and I thought to myself," What's wrong with me? I just feel a bit different." Where if I knew that was maybe normal or I had some tools to navigate it, whether it was talking to someone, journaling, meditation, a bit more exercise, whatever the case is, then maybe it would've been easier for me to navigate and I wouldn't have had to figure it out on my own. So I think it's about giving people a toolbox and I think those mental skills and wellness tools should be taught to us in school, like English is, like science is because I would argue they're probably more relevant than some of the other things. Not to say that the others aren't important, I just think that they're skills and tools that stay with you for life to the moment you die, they're just critical.
Dane Groeneveld: Yeah, they are. And that story you told about waking up yesterday and Soph's not feeling well and you ying and yang the work through the day, do you get to share that with your team? They get to see you living your life that way?
Shaun McCambridge: Yeah. I think to be fair, Dane, it still doesn't come super normal for me because I was hard programed, probably a bit like you. My dad was at work first and he was at work last. And even when he'd come home, he was still working. So that was my programming, subconscious programming. I still feel a little guilty about it, but I just plow through that guilt now and I try to be unapologetic around it and I try to be open about it. I think in iterations, my first iteration would've been," Oh, maybe I'm not well," so I wouldn't have talked to the fact that my daughter's unwell. Would've just said" I'm unwell," and come up with an excuse, so to speak. But now I just say it is what it is. And I think it's important for me to be okay with that so it enables others to be okay with that and I can normalize it. I certainly don't think I shirt my task or responsibilities of work I had to get done. I was still taking phone calls late to the evening and doing emails and I started early. So I don't feel like I've got less done. But I think the point is I've tried to be more okay individually, but also share that, so hopefully that enables other people to do the same.
Dane Groeneveld: I'm definitely learning to do a better job of sharing, because like you said, I would often feel guilty about it. So I would be like, I've got meetings this morning and I'd sneak off to take the kids to the park or whatever, which was a bit of a white lie. I had meetings with my kids. But now actually, there was an article I read the other day from Adam Grant talking about how we need to be intentional in the hybrid workplace, and we actually need to talk about what the plan is and where the flexibility is. And then leaders need to lead. They need to lead by example. If you're telling everyone it's a three day work week, don't turn up five days a week in the office, because you're creating this undue pressure on people. If you're telling people it's okay to knock off at 3: 00 and take the kids out for a couple of hours and then pick back up, work in the evening, go and do that. It's been relieving seeing some of that coming into mainstream and become more commonplace post COVID because I think as leaders, we need that little bit of peer support to be going in that direction, shifting in this future of teamwork.
Shaun McCambridge: I think COVID was the best thing that ever happened to that dynamic of work. It fast tracked and expedited the normalization of what we see or the moving normalization of what we see here today in terms of that flexibility. I think with growing mental health challenges across the board, this can only help because it relieves some of that pressure. As you know, with a young family, further the work commitments, there's a lot going on. There's a lot going on in the work context, family context, but for you as well. So I think that relieves some of that pressure and I think that's really, really important. I think's been wonderful to expedite that movement.
Dane Groeneveld: As you think about coming back to work for COVID, thinking more towards some of your customers and some of your employees that are on hire out in the field, how is that changing in those more physically demanding work environments?
Shaun McCambridge: I'm not so sure. Obviously, it's very hard to be a diesel fitter in a remote mine from home. It's very, very hard. I don't think that workplace has necessarily changed, but I think we are seeing more and more investment in psychological safety, physical and mental wellbeing, and tools and frameworks to enable support the challenges that people inevitably go through. We are seeing some roles where it's appropriate being challenged, why do you need to fly to remote Australia to do your job as a mining engineer? Can you not do some of the mine planning from Brisbane? That enables you to be more with your family and all the rest of it. So I think we're certainly seeing people question whether your job always needs to be done on site. Or even the travel. You've done probably a lot more travel than me, but we are now seeing some of our client relationships going," Well, rather than me fly all the way to the other side of Australia, why don't you and I have a remote coffee?" It more or less is good, particularly if we've already met one another in the past because we've already got that rapport and understanding. Whereas in the past, I would've flown a day to get there and I would've spent two or three days there because I was over there and then a day to get back. So I've lost a week away from my family or away from my team here. Whereas now you and I can achieve this in an hour, and it's more or less the same outcome. So I think there has been some norms that have been shifted as a result of COVID, but I think it's an ongoing thing. I'd hate to think we go backwards now that things have become more open. I hope that we continue to challenge best outcomes for people and businesses as opposed to we just got stuck in that groove for many years prior to that. We're definitely starting to see some of that stuff shift, for sure.
Dane Groeneveld: I'm actually excited that you mentioned that some companies are thinking about for mine planning, can you do more of it from the office and not be on site as much? Because that's a good start. Your point on the virtual coffee, I've been reading a lot, watching a lot, talking a lot to people about the metaverse and what's coming with virtual reality, augmented reality, all this other good stuff. We're not far off. It wouldn't be unusual I think in three or five years time for us to do a site walk with the customer in our Oculus headset from our offices. There's 3D cameras now. They can create a lot of rendering, not quite at that level in the metaverse, but it's not far away. So that could be a really different way for us to operate as teams from very distributed parts of the planet, not just Australia.
Shaun McCambridge: Yeah. I think it's exciting. God knows where it's all going, but I think it's exciting. The first thing, I'm not confronted or nervous about that. I think it can only be a good thing in terms of looking at some of those innovations, how they can help how teams interact. And really, I think if the individual's better off, the team will be better off. Some of those developments you talk about, I think will be really positive. Face to face interaction is really, really important. I don't think we want to totally remove ourselves from that dynamic because by nature, I think we're designed, if you can say such a phrase, to be around people. I think it's important we are connected. We don't want to totally remove from that. But I think having that flexibility to come in and out around other aspects of life is important, because I think in that digital world, it's definitely got a purpose, but I think relationships are the fabric of life, and that's something that I took away. I think maybe we talked about the fact, the younger version of me was incredibly ambitious to the point where I probably didn't make time for friends or family as much as I should have. And then whilst there was success there, I felt often felt quite lonely. And then I stumbled across that Harvard 70 year study where they started a group of men from high and low socioeconomic communities. And there was one common trend after 70 years. Those that were the happiest were those that had the best relationships. Didn't matter whether or not you're from wealth or you were in humble communities, it was those that had the best relationships to endure good times and bad times. So I think the digital world's great, but I think that face to face is still important, to have that hybrid. I think that hybrid environment's the best.
Dane Groeneveld: Yeah, I would agree. We had a conference recently where Dan Pink spoke to us for the day, and a couple of points you just touched on reminded me of some of his thinking. Two soundbites that I thought were interesting. The first one, when he said what's an office for? He said once upon a time, an office was a warehouse for equipment that you needed to use at work. But now an office is starting to trend more towards being a clubhouse rather than a warehouse, because actually people need to get together but they don't have to get together to work. He made a really interesting comment on, we spend all these hours together working with people, but we don't ever really get to know them or build meaningful relationships with them as we should for the time we spend together, because work is a bit of a grind. So I thought that was fascinating. I'd certainly like to see more in the future that we use the virtual reality to do a lot of the work. Then we take the time to travel and be together to do the team building activities and the getting to know each other and the ideation that you need to be together for. I think that would be really cool.
Shaun McCambridge: Yeah. I think that's a great analogy, that sense of a clubhouse. People want to come, you want to collaborate. You want to be around people because yeah, right, and certainly more so and this year than today, often I would race to my desk work all day, go home. And other than surface level pleasantries," Hey, Dane, how you going?" I made no effort to connect. I made no effort to share. I was there on a mission. So you didn't really know too much about me and I didn't know too much about you because I was on a mission. I like that notion of clubhouse. Back to that point around being intentional, saying if you've got this hybrid work environment, but we're going to have this clubhouse, this place where we collaborate, we connect, we share, we spend time together to get to know one another and share ideas and all that sort of stuff, that's pretty intentional. It creates a reason for people to come. So I really like that framework.
Dane Groeneveld: That's what came up in that Adam Grant article on intentionality. He said, don't just say everyone's got to be in the office on Tuesdays and Thursdays and have people turn up and sit in boring meetings. Say on Tuesdays and Thursdays, we're going to put the computers down and we're going to do our brainstorm sessions, do our customer feedback sessions, whatever it is where you've got to drive that interaction, which can be a bit more fun.
Shaun McCambridge: For sure. I think that's positive collaboration, isn't it? You know what I mean? We do a similar thing on a Monday. We try and get people on a Monday, but we'll do a bit of a share in the morning and it could be as simple as what'd you do on the weekend to a temperature check, how you're going personally, professionally, to do you want to share a goal? Or whatever it is. It could be weird or wonderful. But the idea is to get to know one another, a little bit better, have a bit of a laugh, whatever the case is. But then we'll talk about our intentions for the week and we might... but out of the share is always," Oh, Dane, I heard you talk about this customer. I can help you with this because I've done this and that." So it's a collaboration, but it's also a less formal way to connect and understand who are you? What are you up to outside of work as well? So that notion of clubhouse, I think that's really cool.
Dane Groeneveld: And then the second point that Pink talked about, he's done this world regret survey. I really appreciated what you just said there about, hey, the younger version of myself probably didn't put as much time into some relationships, because that actually comes out in one of his surveys. He surveyed 20, 30, 40,000 people around the world. And there's four types of regret, but one of those first ones is the foundational regret around," Gee, I wish I hadn't smoked or I wish I'd spent more time getting to know my brother, my sister, my father, my friend," whatever it was. He talks about the importance of regret that a lot of people have always said, don't have regrets, but that actually regret is a feedback loop. It's telling you there's something there that you haven't spent enough time on or that you wish you'd done differently. Now's the time to act, not tomorrow. I think that's a big part of the way that good teams work is that they think about, they do that after action review. They sit down as a team and say," Hey, what could have gone better this last week? What can we act on differently now?" It's not just at work, but at home. It's a very powerful concept.
Shaun McCambridge: Yeah. And I stand corrected, mate, I think it's naive to think you can go through life without regrets because I agree, it's a compass, isn't it? The days you wake up and you feel great, okay, I'm on track. The days you wake up or the moments you realize, oh regret, it's just that navigation to say you're off track, isn't it?
Dane Groeneveld: Yeah.
Shaun McCambridge: I forget who quoted it, and we can find out but it's very, very simple," When I do good, I feel good. When I do bad, I feel bad." And maybe it was Edison or something like that. But I think that's just simple. And that's my experience in life. I think when you're younger, you do things you're not proud of or things that in retrospect you do differently, but you feel bad. And then as you grow and mature, you're a bit more emotionally intelligent, aware and the better work you do or the better behavior you exhibit, the better you feel, and that manifests. And I think now I'd much rather feel good, more than regretful and bad. So you start to figure out a bit of a formula for what works for you and what's right, but I definitely agree. I think that regret survey is a huge one because so many people I'm sure, and I've lost two great friends in the last year in their forties. I don't even have a will completed at this stage because I feel like I've got ages to sort that out. But I'm sure if I was to ask those two guys who from the outside were successful business people, friends, and they had wonderful families, I'm sure they would have regrets. So I think it's important to tune in, but I think it takes a bit of courage to pursue some of those things as well.
Dane Groeneveld: A lot of courage.
Shaun McCambridge: You know what I mean?
Dane Groeneveld: Yeah. A lot of courage.
Shaun McCambridge: There's things in my head that maybe I want to do or see or experience, but I'm putting it off, I'm putting it off. I think sometimes it takes a bit of courage to go, you know what? I'm going to go after that because nothing's for certain, not even tomorrow, without sounding too morbid. I really like that notion of regret survey because I think it forces a level of consciousness around maybe some of the things I would like to do or like to achieve. It might even be, I'm going to take on the opportunity to speak publicly in my next business meeting, on my next customer pitch. It could be, I'm going to take that on. I'm going to take that challenge. I don't want the regret of, oh no, I'll do it next time and avoiding it. So I think it comes at different levels. I really like that consciousness of avoiding or taking on things to avoid regret.
Dane Groeneveld: Yeah, absolutely. I'll send you that survey link. It's very cool.
Shaun McCambridge: Yeah, that's cool.
Dane Groeneveld: When you think about the team right now, are you seeing any... obviously you've got some great practice in your business around culture and around celebration, around learning and development, like bringing the health coach, that's awesome. Are you seeing technologies that are helping to reinforce team wellness, team connectivity? Are there any, don't want to say silver bullets, but are there any little tips and tricks that you're seeing in the teams, in the businesses that you're running?
Shaun McCambridge: None really other than the fact that I think the technology platforms that we work off now enable remote work better. Once upon a time, when we both started our career, it was inconceivable to think that you could have the same experience that you get in our corporate work environment at home. It was just inconceivable. We didn't have smart phones. We didn't have computers at home that were enabled to the network like we did at work. It was just inconceivable. Now that we've got all that, my experience at home is exactly the same as my experience right here in the office. But equally you, and I let's just say you're team member in LA, we can have a pretty good connection like this. Whereas back in the day I'll be calling you, you didn't know what I initially looked like. There was no mannerisms, there's no exchange, all that sort of stuff. So I think-
Dane Groeneveld: Cost a fortune.
Shaun McCambridge: Yeah. Correct. You fly there, I fly there. So I think that's probably the most obvious one that's enabled a greater sense of teamwork in that regard. And also, we've seen in COVID, I'd see in the background and I'd see Claire on the Peloton in the background. I'd see Riker running past, that sort of stuff. And that was cool. I'm like," Oh cool. That's a cool house. And oh, your wife does Peloton as well?" I see more of you and all the rest. So we see that now. Sometimes people dial into a meeting, and once upon a time pre COVID, I'll be embarrassed. I'll be aghast if Johnty or Hunter was coming I'm like,"Go, go." But now it's like," Hey buddy, this is my little Hunter. Say hi to everyone." So there's been no silver bullet, but I think it's certainly enabled better work in seeing more of the individual. And I think it's enabled work to be done more flexibly, which has been good for the betterment of the team.
Dane Groeneveld: Yeah. I would agree. I've had a few people comment and say they feel like they know their team members better now because they do know the wife, the kids, the dogs that have been on the regular video interviews, video conferences.
Shaun McCambridge: Yeah, it's pretty cool.
Dane Groeneveld: It's neat. We found one cool piece of tech and COVID called Kahoot where you can basically do an online pop quiz and it's like real time. You download the app. And so we would have these happy hours or virtual meetings across the teams, particularly as we were buying and integrating new companies into the group. And you'd do it. And going back to your earlier point on so many of us in this industry, people in recruiting staffing world, they're competitors, they like to win, that was fascinating seeing people really go for it on the pop quiz leaderboard.
Shaun McCambridge: That sounds cool because we've still got fairly geographically dispersed teams and there's definitely been a bit of a silo effect, no doubt about it, through that time naturally. As new people have joined the business, we haven't been able to leverage or rely on the relationships that preexisted prior to COVID. So I think that sounds like a pretty cool thing. So I must follow you up on that as well because I think we still must make an effort to stay connected even though things have normalized.
Dane Groeneveld: Yeah, absolutely. I think that's right. No, that's cool. So as you think forwards now next couple of years in the business, we've come out of COVID, have you got your eyes on any big developments, exciting changes that you hope for across your teams or the teams that you support on customer side?
Shaun McCambridge: Well, I think there's unprecedented opportunity in front of our business right now, which is exciting. We've got to seek to make the most of those opportunities, but I think on the team side of things, as you know, I think retention of key personnel is just so critical to success. And it's not to say that new personnel isn't important to inject new ideas, new energy and new experience, but I think retention of key personnel is key within that. So we're just spending a lot of time around how do we continue to engage both the individual, but the family at home to the business? Because we feel like if people are happier and more engaged within the workplace, they'll do better work, it'll transcend to better life at home, and hopefully that's a net positive for everyone. So rightly or wrongly, I care a lot about our team members. I feel like they're family members, and maybe some people might disagree and they might go,"Well, look, we're here to do a job and you're colleagues and just get on with it," but I like to see people happy, healthy and prospering and moving forward. So I think we'll continue to invest in that, mate, and not just in an individual context, how that transcends into life at home, hence bringing in this coach to work with our business this year, which I think will be super exciting. He's going to talk about things from winning habits to the importance of diet, habits, sleep, meditation, mindfulness, a bunch of stuff that. For people like you, you're doing a lot of that stuff already, but for a lot of people that's new and we're going to extend that to the significant others at home as well and maybe some of our field staff that we have on hire. I'm actually really passionate about improving the lives and the mental health of those that we work with because I think if we can do that, then work's easier and hopefully you are in a better head space to perform, and navigate the challenges that inevitably come. So I think that's probably the thing that I'm most passionate about moving forward is how do we enable people to navigate good and bad times individually and as a family? Because if we can do that, I feel like they'll be more connected to the business, doing better work again as a byproduct of us focusing on them and their families.
Dane Groeneveld: Yeah, no, I agree. I'm excited for that too. I think I've learned a lot of that from you and from some of the guests you've had on your podcast too. It's exciting to think that we can take our teams to this future of work island, future of teamwork island, where there is health, wealth, prosperity, social and emotional and spiritual wellness. I think all of that's really important because technology's continuing to come down on us. The pace of life continues to speed up. You really need to stop and be intentional. So I like that view and certainly keen to be on that journey with you. I'd have to say it's been a pleasure talking through all this with you today, Shaun. Some key highlights, I think I really appreciate you sharing your story about being reflective on our younger working selves and our today working selves, the importance of balancing at home and work and really thinking about the health of everyone around us. I think there's been a lot of great discussion on those topics and it's just refreshing to be able to have those conversations in the world of work.
Shaun McCambridge: No, absolutely, mate. Really appreciate you having me on the show and I've certainly taken some, some great points from you as well. I appreciate some of those follow up items that we talked about. I always enjoy our conversations, Dane, and love the work that you're doing around teamwork more broadly. I think you've always been one to challenge the status quo. I think you've never been one to doggedly accept the norms of the time, which is cool. I love the fact that you're ambitious as an entrepreneur, a corporate leader, but I know how passionate you are about your family and how important that is to you. I admire how well you do both, mate. So keep up your great work.
Dane Groeneveld: Thanks, Shaun. If anyone wants to reach out to you and learn a bit more about Stellar Recruitment or some of these great coaches that you're bringing into the team, what's the easiest way for people to find you?
Shaun McCambridge: Well, you can certainly find me on LinkedIn. Probably if you want to see the more personal aspect of me, it's certainly Instagram on those side of things. So probably those two. On LinkedIn, I've got all my contact details. So by all means, if anyone wants to reach out, you can contact me via phone or email, always keen to connect with like- minded people and learn from you guys or vice versa. So feel free to reach out.
Dane Groeneveld: Great. All right, Shaun. Thanks again for today. It's been wonderful.
Shaun McCambridge: Cheers, Dane. All the best, mate.
Dane Groeneveld: Thanks, mate.
DESCRIPTION
Today on The Future of Teamwork, host and Huddl3 Group CEO, Dane Groeneveld talks with Stellar Recruitment's Managing Director, Shaun McCambridge, about the changing landscape of remote, hybrid, and in-person work. Shaun also shares lessons learned in leadership and a philosophy of living greatness, as well as Stellar's values and prioritizing emotional intelligence.
Topics of conversation:
- [00:54] Shaun McCambridge and Stellar Recruitment
- [03:11] When did Shaun and his team decide to go all in on building Stellar Recruitment?
- [08:03] Shaun's definition of good teamwork
- [11:32] Stellar's Three Values
- [13:03] Living the behaviors of greatness
- [16:45] The roles of mindfulness, flexibility, and vulnerability in achieving balance with teams
- [20:51] The school of hard knocks vs compassion and vulnerability as tools
- [24:36] Leading by example in a hybrid work environment
- [26:25] How COVID is affecting customers returning to physically demanding work environments
- [28:43] Meeting virtually and innovations in collaboration
- [31:29] What is an office for?
- [34:41] Regret and growing emotional intelligence
- [38:28] Technologies that are helping to reinforce team wellness, connectivity, and culture
- [42:16] Where Shaun sees opportunities coming out of COVID