Enterprise Facilitators and Listening to Local communities with Dr. Ernesto Sirolli

Dane Groeneveld: Welcome to The Future of Teamwork podcast. My name's Dane Groeneveld. Today I've got a special guest Ernesto Sirolli. Welcome to the show, Ernesto.

Ernesto Sirolli: Hi Dane, how are you? Nice to see you.

Dane Groeneveld: Yeah, really good to see you again. It's been quite a while. But I've been enjoying a lot of your material online.

Ernesto Sirolli: Thank you. Very kind.

Dane Groeneveld: So maybe as a starting point today, Ernesto, we're here to talk a lot about teamwork and I was fascinated when we first met hearing about some of your early stories, but could you give us a little bit of your personal and business background?

Ernesto Sirolli: Yes. Italian born. I lived and work some 11 years in various African countries from Zambia, Kenya, Ivory Coast, Algeria, Somalia, South Africa. And then 19 years lived and worked in Australia. And the last 25 years, I've been in the United States. Six years in the Midwest, South Dakota and Minnesota, and then California for the rest of the time. I have a background in political sciences, and then I went into psychology and did a PhD on a concept of responsive development. Can we for once shut up and listen, and learn to capture the passion, the energy imagination of the people in the communities that we impact. And so 40 years ago, I created a new profession, the enterprise facilitator. If invited by community, if we're invited by government, by corporation, to work in a specific region or in a geography of intent, for instance, working for a population that is immigrant, refugees, people recently displaced, women, minorities. If we're invited, we establish locally, we employ locally, people to be trained to then become enterprise facilitators, which means people who from that point on will never initiate anything, will never motivate anybody, will simply learn to shut up and listen to self- motivated, passionate local people with a dream, and help them transform talent, energy, imagination, and skills into a lifestyle. Which is an entrepreneurial sustainable business. And we've done that in 400 communities approximately in 23 countries. And our enterprise facilitators have been able to establish, or help to establish some 55,000 businesses in four continents. So, we have given seven TED Talks, written two books, and we were invited to come to the United States in 1995. And we have been given then a special visa for one of those national interest waivers and all one to remain in America and set up a non for- profit organization called the Sirolli Institute after mining. And we keep training and working with anybody with an interest in this kind of alternative, what we call third way of engaging people and communities the third way. Because the first one is paternalistic. We go there and we treat them as our children. And so, we go there and we provide goods to children. The second way is patronizing, which is treating everybody as employees. So we tend to employ everybody that we can possibly employ in the hope to win hearts and mind of people locally, by employing as many as possible. And the third way I believe is to instead facilitate the transformation of local intelligence into ways for local people to become better citizens, better husband, better wives, by creating a way that is a sustainable way of feeding the families and themselves. So it's been a long journey. First project of enterprise facilitation was in 1985, and we have never ever, ever stopped. And never really deviated from this kind of concept. And the way of helping entrepreneur is what is so intriguing because I see your logo, and our methodology is called the Trinity of Management. It compose of three people. And your logo is absolutely perfect because what we do when we meet a passion or self- motivated individual in a community anywhere in Africa, in Asia, we basically do a very simple drawing. We do a smiley face. If it's a woman, we always put hairs around it. So that's the drawing that we do all over the world. And then what we do, we say a business to succeed needs to be doing three things beautifully. The product has to be beautiful. Marketing has to be fantastic. Financial management has to be perfect. And what we say to the person at the top, we never met anybody who has the passion and skills to do those three things equally well. You have a dream, what do you want to do in your business? The product, marketing or finance. If you could only do in your business what you love, which one of these would you do. And as soon as the person tells us what is their love, then we have been now told what she hates. So then we say, " Okay. So if you love to do the product, who is doing marketing, who is doing financial management?" And we call this the Trinity of Management, and we transform solitary, passionate people who have the love to do one thing in a team of three. So that's why the trinity is so important to us. And the Trinity of Management is what our enterprise facilitators teach. They say, " You love to breed chicken, who do you know in the community who's unemployed, underemployed, a woman who wants to reenter the labor force after having children, who do you know, who is looking for something to do, has the most wonderful personality and is capable taking your chicken to the market every day? And then who do you know who understands numbers, who for one chicken a month will be able to look after your financials? And so we do the Trinity of Management. We apply to Californian startups, Silicon Valley people, is the same criteria. You have developed phenomenal software, phenomenal technology solutions, but you are a nerd. You only love coding. And what we say is that, who is your business developer? Which is the marketing. Who is your chief financial officer? And come back to us when you have the team, and then we will work with your team to write a bankable business plan, do a minimum viable project, and MVP. But we do not take you to investors until you have a team. If you don't have a team of three, you are not a business, you are a hobby.

Dane Groeneveld: I love that.

Ernesto Sirolli: And so we don't put you in front of investors because putting you in front of investors is incredibly dangerous for yourself.

Dane Groeneveld: Yeah. I love the fact that you just mentioned, you did your first project in 1985. So you've essentially been out there reimagining, creating the future of teamwork for, what's that, 37 years already.

Ernesto Sirolli: Yeah. I look young but I'm very old. I was already 35 in 1985. And I started to work in Africa when I was 21. Always in the field of development. So, yeah, I've been at this for a long time. And I came to realize, for those who have not seen my most famous TED Talk, that is called Shut Up and Listen, by age 28, 29, I had already seen how the two approaches of being patronizing and paternalistic, so incredibly fraught with dangers because you can imagine, as soon as your money run out, the people in communities around Africa did not want to know us anymore. They only came to do work for us when we had the money, but as soon as the money ran out, we had not really changed their ways because, you know, and been patronizing by say, okay, we become the patron of everybody and we pay to employ everybody is unsustainable. Maybe in the construction phase of the mining. New mine you employ three, 4, 000, 5, 000 people. But once the major work is done, your mine will employ a few hundred people in a community of thousands and hundreds of thousands. So, you are not being able to really exercise any major economic role on a community of hundreds of thousands of people.

Dane Groeneveld: Yeah. So really what I'm hearing Ernesto is that by coming into these communities, you're harnessing the passion and the energy and the motivation of people who are there, who already have a resource and a strength, and then you're encouraging them to branch out and create a team that allows them to create economic vitality.

Ernesto Sirolli: Yeah. But also, you have to imagine that we in the 70s working in Africa, we really thought that we were the saviors of the local people. We thought that we were so superior. And can you imagine the Western arrogance? Oh my God. These are children. We have to help these poor people or let's employ them. But never ever, ever cross our mind that the local people were not just the beneficiaries of our Goodwill. See, for us, truly, they were there to receive. They were people receiving our beneficence, and our munificence. And never crossed our mind that actually the local people were actors in their own lives. We never listened to the local people because we thought that we were so superior to the local people. Why listen to them? You know? And then you discover that, oh my God, we were the most arrogant and the most stupid people. Where things went wrong, where always went wrong because we had zero understanding of the local conditions.

Dane Groeneveld: Yes.

Ernesto Sirolli: So, we were dealing with people who were so smart, and so resilient. And we arrived super imposing our technology without understanding what was the sad context. So, the story that everybody knows me for is the story of our first project in Zambia. When in 1971, we arrived in a beautiful, pristine community on the Zambezi River, at the border between Zambia, and at that time still the Rhodesia, and we arrived to teach the local people agriculture. And we set up this phenomenal training farm to teach the local people Italian horticulture. We brought Italian seeds of tomatoes and zucchini. And we pretended to teach the local people because they had no agriculture. And we said, the guys in such a fertile valley, it would be so easy to establish good agricultural practices. And yeah, everything grew beautifully. But as soon as everything grew, the tomatoes became this beautiful tomatoes, enormous tomatoes that we had never seen the like in Italy, as soon as everything grew beautifully, the hippos came out of the river and they ate all our crops. And then when we look at the Zambian local people, they were laughing so hard. They had tears streaming down their faces, and they were pointing at us. They had always known that the reason why you cannot grow anything in an alluvial plane next to the Zambezi River, is because the Zambezi River is full of thousands of floating cows. And they are the most dangerous animal in Africa. And as soon as you grow anything, they can smell it. They come, and you cannot keep them out of your fields. Only after the fact, when we saw the Zambians laughing, we said, " Did you know about that?" And they said, " That's why we have no Agriculture here. Because of the hippos." Why didn't you tell us. Well, you never asked. You pay us every day to do what you want. And you are paying us, at that time, just to give you an idea. You know that people saying that the poorest people in the world on$ 1 American a day, this is year, 2022. Okay? We were paying the Zambian people in 1971, one American dollar equivalent a day. So we were paying people like they had never seen so much money. In one week they were making seven time. They were making in one day, 10 times what their villagers were making. So of course they were coming and working for us.

Dane Groeneveld: Yeah. Why tell the boss they had it wrong when you're getting the paycheck?

Ernesto Sirolli: The Italians are coming. They want us to plant Coca- Cola bottles, we plant Coca- Cola bottles. We do not know what these people are thinking. But then, when we told them, why didn't you tell us, they said to us, " What do you mean?" You know?

Dane Groeneveld: Yeah. I wondered, I mean, there's an interesting theme now coming out of COVID, not just in the development world, but right here down the street in California and other major cities around the world, where I wonder if there are some parallels. A lot of people have traditionally just turned up to work and done what their bosses have told them to do. But they've been in their communities sitting on great ideas, more aware of what the needs are. And then the pandemic comes along. People are forced to work from home. And now there's this technology and some more time. I wonder if we're now seeing an opportunity for all companies to adopt a little bit more of your framework.

Ernesto Sirolli: Look, I received a message that my book is trending. And I was like, my book, Ripples from the Zambezi was written in 1995. And the book is trending now, and people are discovering now? And they're saying, " Oh my God, Ernesto, listening to local people. That's what's fashionable now."

Dane Groeneveld: Yeah.

Ernesto Sirolli: This is what are we trying to do. And you were doing it in 85. Yes. In 85, my first project in Australian remote village, there was suffering because of a government decision of closing tuna fishing. In that community, in 24 months, we worked with 60 clients and one client would've been 50 of the richest farmers in town. 27 other farmers, five fishermen. In 24 months, we set up 27 companies. And some of the companies were million dollar companies. For instance, the poorest five remaining tuna fishermen, the fisherman did the product. We found an international marketer who took the fish to Japan. The wife of one of the fishermen was a banker. She was working at a local bank. So product marketing, finance, in one year, they were selling all their tuna cash in Japan. The famous Tsukiji Market. And in Tsukiji marketing in Tokyo, they auction each tuna individually. So they went from selling tuna 60 cents per kilo, and in 12 months they were selling tuna for $ 15 per kilo.

Dane Groeneveld: It's a big margin improvement.

Ernesto Sirolli: What I'm saying is that we set up 27 companies. Some of this company were million dollar companies. And then my PhD, basically, I was doing that for my PhD. And then governments from various Australian states adopted my methodology. We invented enterprise facilitation. And there was a time when 36 enterprise facilitators in Western Australia, by the way, the program is still on after all these years. But at the height of the enterprise facilitation programs, the 36 enterprise facilitators working 36 remote communities were creating 2000 new businesses per year. And there was, Australian government did a independent study, and they came to realize that these 2000 businesses were contributed half a billion dollar to the economy every year. So it was like truly going looking for gold in those communities. And the gold was in their hearts and mind between the years of people. Gold was there. And nobody had really gone prospecting for gold. And we invented this go and prospect for intelligence and passion.

Dane Groeneveld: That's spectacular. And I read a lot right now on that theme of companies need to stop hiring for old tasks and they need to start hiring for passion, intelligence, belief, purpose, heart, because you can teach, particularly as technology continues to evolve, you can teach people the skills as it comes along or to your point, you can create the trilogy and bring in the necessary marketing or financial support if they're a product person.

Ernesto Sirolli: Yeah.

Dane Groeneveld: I'm starting to see that shift in a lot of businesses. If you think about some of the teams that were created from your early enterprise facilitation efforts, are there any that really stand out who have scaled up and deployed technology or otherwise?

Ernesto Sirolli: Yes. Look, we have seen everything in those communities. We have help entrepreneurs going from basically very prosaic to the very sophisticated. We have met brilliant minds in communities. I remember in a project in rural Kansas, we came across the very first tracking company that was using technology to sell the back loading space that they had in trucks. We had the examples of application of technology when technology was barely starting with a digital revolution. We have seen some really some very sophisticated people, as well as some very prosaic people going into... Farmers learning how to commercialize their own products, but even cooperatives, in even large projects. We had an enterprise facilitator in a small community in South Dakota. And usually, you know, we get 20, 30, 40 new businesses every year in a community, of say 20 to 30, 000 people. When we chat about the numbers of businesses that this community had created in the first four years, we were disappointed because they had only created nine new businesses in this South Dakota, rural community. So we investigated and we said, how do the people, other people still paying for the salary of the enterprise facilitator. Are the people happy with what you've done, and they laughed. And they said, we now have no unemployment because one of the businesses that 29 local farmers wanted to form, was to create an ethanol plant.

Dane Groeneveld: Of course.

Ernesto Sirolli: And now the ethanol plant has employed everybody in town. We have zero unemployment. So they had one business, that it cost them something like$ 28 million to build the plant. 4, 000 farmers just brought produce to one ethanol plant. So, they said, yeah, we have created nine businesses but this are-

Dane Groeneveld: The big one.

Ernesto Sirolli: ...community where already there was scarce population and unemployment, but after the ethanol plant really. So that project is still going on. And it is run by someone who is the daughter of the original enterprise facilitator. She has now become an enterprise facilitator and is 30 years old project. The first enterprise facilitator ever in Minnesota, his son works in local economic development with the father. And the original salary of the enterprise facilitator was from a university grant to allow us to train somebody for the first time in North America. Well, that person has been employed by the county government now by 30 years. And so our enterprise facilitators very often they get co- opted by local authorities to say, wow, we never knew that there were so many potential entrepreneurs in our community. But it's very interesting that we've been co- opted by big corporations, because I thought that governments would jump all over us to say, oh my God, this is perfect for rural development, regional development. So unless they come and teach us. Yes, we have worked with governments, but we are working with corporations much more because imagine what happens when a corporation says, Ernesto, how do we accelerate and retain our license to operate? We are impacting communities. We are employing three, 400 people. That's not enough to make an impact in the local economy, but what else can we do? We do charity. We do the usual things. So corporations said, " What is this third way?" And I said to the corporation, " Why don't you help local people create a parallel economy to yours?" And they said, " What?" We said, " Yeah, you will be there for say 20, 30, 40 years before you have to move or do something else-

Dane Groeneveld: Yes.

Ernesto Sirolli: ...because the local situation has changed. So why don't you help local people to create so many businesses that when you go away, you leave behind an economy that is flourishing. That is diversified." And they said, " Can you do that?" And I said, " Well, how much time you have?" And they say, "Oh, no, we will be here for another 30 years." Really? In 30 years, I'll tell you what happens. In Western Australia, in my first community, I was invited to celebrate 20 years of enterprise facilitation. So the community invited me back. And you can imagine the emotions to see some of the people you had met 20 years before. And in that community, the person in charge of running the enterprise facilitation project was the same person who was there when I was there. So he took the microphone and said to me, Ernesto you will be very proud of us because in this community of 15, 000 people in 20 years, we have helped to start or expand 800 businesses. So imagine the impact of 800 new businesses in a remote, rural community. Basically we had touched the lives of every single person in the community. And the project has not stopped. They keep going. So it's-

Dane Groeneveld: It's a repeating cycle.

Ernesto Sirolli: Yeah. A ripple becomes a self- fulfilling prophecy. People start to believe that their community particularly smart, because they have examples of successful entrepreneurs. So they have the neighbor who had gone from, selling something to a middle man to sell directly into a city market. So they've learned how to do it. When your neighbor is not a price taker, but your neighbor is a price maker.

Dane Groeneveld: Yeah.

Ernesto Sirolli: The culture in the community is changed forever. Because they say, wait a moment, if John can do it, I went to school with John. I'm smarter. If John can make 10 times what I'm making by having the son and the daughter taking the produce to the market directly.

Dane Groeneveld: Yes.

Ernesto Sirolli: Why can't I do it? Actually, let me go to John to say, Hey, can you please represent my product as well? I pay you 10%, but I'm making 80% more than what I was making selling it to a middle man.

Dane Groeneveld: So really, the process not only creates teams, but it really creates more agency, more empowerment in the heads of everyone.

Ernesto Sirolli: Everything.

Dane Groeneveld: Yeah.

Ernesto Sirolli: Everything. It's like day and night you teach how to fish truly. Because now you have a free confidential coach paid by the local corporation, paid by the local government, paid by a non for- profit. But now you have somebody who lives there because we only recruit local people as enterprise facilitators.

Dane Groeneveld: Yeah.

Ernesto Sirolli: So you have somebody who speaks the dialect. Not even the language. No, no. Speaks the dialect of that community, is the son or daughter of somebody who knows everybody and is somebody who has children to the same school, goes to the same church, is of the same faith. So now you have somebody from your own culture who is paid full time by the corporation and whose sole work is to be this gold miner. In other words, she only works with self- motivated beautiful people who have ideas but not in a million years they would've known what to do with it.

Dane Groeneveld: Yeah.

Ernesto Sirolli: So that the price facilitator really teaches the essence of entrepreneurship and corporations go crazy. We have worked with the biggest corporations in the world. We have worked with some of the biggest mining companies in the world. We have projects in Africa, in Latin America. We have projects in Australia of course. But at the same time, we are still radical after 40 years because we realized what we've done. We have told everybody that they are missing the forest for the trees.

Dane Groeneveld: Yes.

Ernesto Sirolli: They don't understand how brilliant the local people are because they never, ever, ever taking the time to befriend them, sit at the kitchen table with them and to ask the question, what's your dream.

Dane Groeneveld: I think the work that I've seen done, and there's some brilliant people out there working in economic development in a lot of different cities and countries. But what I see is their traditional playbook. Maybe it falls more into your paternalistic patronizing models is, well, we're going to create new training pathways and we're going to attract businesses to come here and create jobs but there aren't many of those groups that are really asking people, what is your dream? And finding those motivated people. In addition to training the enterprise facilitators, are you seeing a role of the Sirolli Institute in actually going in and working with some of these groups to talk about the education, the outreach?

Ernesto Sirolli: Yeah. We have worked with some of the biggest companies in the world training the trainers and educating the staff. We have worked with one of the largest materials company in the world. The headquarters in Mexico. They work in some 30 countries in the world. They have some very, very sophisticated manufacturing layout in Europe. And what we've done, we have worked with 140 of the corporate social responsibility people to train them. We work with the seventh largest company in the world for market capitalization to train all their personnel about facilitation versus... So yes, we are desperate to explain the third way, which is, nobody is stopping you from doing what you traditionally have done, but be careful with your charitable giving.

Dane Groeneveld: Yes.

Ernesto Sirolli: Because there is no enemy like a local artist group or church group that you have supported for say 10 years. If you had given a million dollar for the past 10 years to a group in a community, and then you stop, you are going to see fury like you have never seen before. So it's not the people who you have not helped. It's the people who you have created dependency upon yourself.

Dane Groeneveld: Great point.

Ernesto Sirolli: Yeah. The most dangerous. Because they will say, we do not know how to survive without your money.

Dane Groeneveld: Yes.

Ernesto Sirolli: So if you stop the grant, we are going to fold and to fold something that has become a very well run arts organization or local charity, you basically are sucking the life out of an organization that thought that you would be there forever.

Dane Groeneveld: Yeah. It's interesting.

Ernesto Sirolli: So you create dependency and the worst thing that you can do. The greatest sin to avoid at all costs, what we teach our enterprise facilitator is this. If you create dependency upon yourself, you will be fired by us. Because creating dependency means you infantilize your client.

Dane Groeneveld: Yeah.

Ernesto Sirolli: You transform your client in a child. You don't teach your child how to walk. You are keeping that child dependent upon you. And now you have an incapable child. It looks like a grown up, but it's not capable looking after himself. Cannot live without you. And what have you done? Now you have created dependency. And when you employ people thinking, we will be fine. Be careful because when you have to fire a thousand people after the construction stage of your mind, those 1000 people will resent you.

Dane Groeneveld: Yeah. You've talked about a couple of topics that I think fall in line there, you talked about license to operate and you talked about parallel economy. I was in Houston recently talking to the foundation of a large oil and gas company. And they were talking about energy transition. And they were suggesting that in Louisiana, there are a lot of oil and gas facilities that create a lot of economic vitality. It's not just the people that have jobs. It's the catering companies. It's the local service providers.

Ernesto Sirolli: Sure.

Dane Groeneveld: And they explained that with the energy transition at some stage, they're going to decommission those facilities and those jobs won't be there. So really what their job needs to be is, embracing the future of teamwork, embracing the future of work and saying, we're going to look at this parallel economy. We're going to create opportunities for entrepreneurs to find out what we're going to be after oil and gas.

Ernesto Sirolli: Yeah. But I really think that we've been asked to help to rewrite the policy statement for some of these corporations. Where we say the policy statement is this, while we are here for all the years in front of us, for freeing confidence, we will help any local people who has a dream to feed herself and her family and become a viable entrepreneur. We will work for freeing confidence with any of you, so as to create a parallel economy to the economy of our corporations. And we make you a promise that we will create more jobs outside of the mine. Outside of the refinery than inside. So that when we will close, we are going to leave the community in much better shape than when we found it. So the idea is an idea where you become a partner in local development by creating a parallel economy to yours. Just to tell you how important this is becoming, never in our history we have a January as busy as this year. Because people are waking up after the pandemic with renewed energy and understanding that things have to change. So there are increased entrepreneurial opportunity seen by everybody. Corporations needing new technologies and having to learn how to innovate and become more sustainable, people inside corporations having discovered that they have a talent and skill and that they can work remotely and they can maybe become more capable of exploring their own talents. And so what happens is that all of a sudden this idea of enable to facilitate entrepreneurship and innovation is becoming very appealing. And we want to work and we want to educate as many people as possible. So we train social corporate responsibility personnel. We've been called by the most bizarre organizations. We've been invited to train people in so many different industries. We were invited to address a risk management conference in Melbourne, Australia. And we said, why us? We know nothing about risk management. And they said, well, the problem is that we don't know how to listen really. Because the greatest problem for risk managers, once it was all finance, now is a corporate reputation. One of the greatest risks for corporations is their reputation risks. There is an article in the paper disclosing that you have blown up Aboriginal cave. Or you discover that you have sweat shops in Bangladesh and there is publicity about it. That reputational risk is so great. You know? So many different industries, it's like the Ted Talk of mine, the Shut Up and Listen. The story of the hippos has gone around the world many, many times. And I touched a nerve and I did not realize that how sensitive that nerve was. So yeah, this is something that we love. We are a training organization and we would like to train more and more corporate social responsibility manager personnel on the third way of engaging communities.

Dane Groeneveld: No, that's brilliant. Ernesto. Thanks for joining me today. It's been a wonderful conversation, so much passion and energy. If I think to summarize that third way that listening and harnessing the passion, the energy, the motivation of people that are already out there. It's such an accessible way to make change and to make sustainable change. I agree with you. To your comment on January. Now's the time to take action.

Ernesto Sirolli: Then it's also the cheapest possible corporate social responsibility strategy you can have because most of our projects are one to three people paid in the local currency. Because we want the enterprise facilitators to be paid in local currency. So that when the corporation pulls out, the local government can afford them. We suggest to do the opposite of what some of the NGOs do in developing countries, where they pay international rates for personnel. And then when they pull out, nobody has the ability to pay international rates. So nobody keeps the positions often. Whereas what we do, we say from the beginning the enterprise facilitator is paid a very good local salary. And so what happened is that, you have enterprise facilitators in the Congo who have created 3000 jobs in one community in the Congo in 10 years, hundreds of new businesses, they are paid the equivalent of maybe$ 400 a month, which is the best salary in that community. But it's something that then is also affordable by the community that now pays the salary of the enterprise facilitator through a church group. Because we had kept that salary local. Otherwise the project would've died eight years ago.

Dane Groeneveld: Yes.

Ernesto Sirolli: So, in terms of enterprise facilitation, is truly a very radical but sustainable policy for corporations. And if, please share with your listeners our contacts. We want to be helpful.

Dane Groeneveld: Absolutely. We'd love to do. And how do people find you?

Ernesto Sirolli: We would love to work with you, because I know that you are doing some terrific work. I am absolutely convinced that the US stolen that logo from my future. Because that logo is absolutely perfect. And I think that we are absolutely on the same wavelength. So, thank you very much for reaching out. Thank you.

Dane Groeneveld: Yeah. Thanks Ernesto. We'll definitely work together. I've got a few projects in mind immediately top of mind. But if people want to find you, if any of our audience want to find you, what's the easiest way.

Ernesto Sirolli: sirolli. com.

Dane Groeneveld: Great.

Ernesto Sirolli: And we use social media, Ernesto Sirolli is my full name. I would invite everybody to watch Shut Up and Listen. Which is, if you really want to help someone, shut up and listen. That's my TED Talk that has now more than four million viewers. Has been translated in 35 languages. They can have their own people in country watch it.

Dane Groeneveld: Yes.

Ernesto Sirolli: We work with corporations recently also in the health delivery systems because people are very interested in applying enterprise facilitation approach to the delivery of health solutions. And yes. Very easy to find us, but also through you. I really would like that people would get in touch with you to put us in touch. Okay?

Dane Groeneveld: Yeah, absolutely. We'll make sure we do that. Well, thanks again, Ernesto. I really appreciate your time today. Absolute pleasure.

Ernesto Sirolli: Bye- bye.

Dane Groeneveld: See you.

Ernesto Sirolli: Nice talking to you. Ciao. Bye.